I must say, Mark, your take on things is sometimes quite unique! You say it doesn't say they were believers. But it does. It says they said, "Lord, Lord...we did these mighty works in your name...". They sure thought they believed in God. But you are correct in your assessment that they were in for themselves, yet that describes all people who do good deeds in order to get something in return. In this case they expected heaven. Isn't that what your religion teaches you?
You claim that those who say they are "saved" are in a way "pre-judging" themselves and usurping Jesus, yet doesn't Scripture say many times that we can know we have eternal life? For example, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.", that sure sounds like an assurance to me. I think what is happening here is, since you believe that your eternal destiny is based on how good you are, you don't think you can ever really be sure about where you will go when you die because, well, you're not dead yet and who knows what kind of mischief you might be overwhelmingly tempted into until now and then, right?
You are angry at the "self-described saved of this era" because you think they (me) somehow think we have attained the perfection of ourselves that is required for the eternal beatific vision. Am I right? Yet, we haven't in any way ever said that and if someone does say that they are quite wrong. None of us can go to heaven because of our good deeds no matter how much suffering or self-sacrifice we endure. No amount of manmade goodness or merit could ever take the place of the perfection that the blood of Christ imparts upon the believer. That is the awesome and amazing thing about grace. We do not deserve what we get and do not get what we deserve.
So the next time you start thinking us self-described saved people are just bragging on ourselves, stop and think about what we are really saying, that we are falling upon the grace and mercy of the most high God who loved us so much he provided a way for us to be with him forever. We aren't bragging.
You are exactly right. In my case, I wasn't saved until my early 20's and that's exactly what I thought of people who claimed they had assurance of salvation. I too believed it was based on works, and it came across as arrogant bragging. And that's the way it DOES come across to someone who thinks it's all based on works, even when they're not bragging.
I know what's in me and I know that I don't deserve heaven, just like everyone else on the planet. NOBODY deserves heaven.
The beauty of it is that we still get it not because of what we've done, but for what Jesus has done for us and offers as a free gift.
Jesus died in my place so that I can live through and for Him. His death is credited to my account since it's a debt I can't pay.
Since all it takes is breaking one law to be guilty of breaking them all, everyone on the planet is already condemned. Even if we could lead the rest of our lives perfect as Jesus, it wouldn't be enough. It's too late.
That's why it HAS to be not earned by works, but a gift for the taking.
It does not say that they were not believers. The text does not even imply it. They thought that they had attained salvation - much like the Reformed contingent here. The Church does not teach expected salvation - and you oughta know - you've posted on it a few times. They teach the hope of salvation - based a lot on the Pauline model, by the way.
You claim that those who say they are "saved" are in a way "pre-judging" themselves and usurping Jesus, yet doesn't Scripture say many times that we can know we have eternal life? For example, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.", that sure sounds like an assurance to me. I think what is happening here is, since you believe that your eternal destiny is based on how good you are, you don't think you can ever really be sure about where you will go when you die because, well, you're not dead yet and who knows what kind of mischief you might be overwhelmingly tempted into until now and then, right?
If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ at the moment of your death, and have repented of your sins, you have a greater than even hope, sure. If you believe today, and disbelieve tomorrow and you die the next day, no way. No salvation for unbelievers - at the moment of their death. That is the point of Judgement and not before.
You are angry at the "self-described saved of this era" because you think they (me) somehow think we have attained the perfection of ourselves that is required for the eternal beatific vision. Am I right? Yet, we haven't in any way ever said that and if someone does say that they are quite wrong. None of us can go to heaven because of our good deeds no matter how much suffering or self-sacrifice we endure. No amount of manmade goodness or merit could ever take the place of the perfection that the blood of Christ imparts upon the believer. That is the awesome and amazing thing about grace. We do not deserve what we get and do not get what we deserve.
Nope, I don't believe that. I believe that you guys think that you (and none of the Reformed believe otherwise that I can discern) have been picked by a cosmic lottery and that you do not have to attain perfection. I think that you guys think that you have a magic loophole or a magic get out of hell free card that bypasses you from Judgement.
So the next time you start thinking us self-described saved people are just bragging on ourselves, stop and think about what we are really saying, that we are falling upon the grace and mercy of the most high God who loved us so much he provided a way for us to be with him forever. We aren't bragging.
No, but you sure are sneering at those you think are reprobate, as opposed to those of you who get a free ride in the magic limousine.