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To: wagglebee; annalex; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus
Several times you have claimed the Mary, mother of James and Joses, is not Mary, the mother of Jesus and several times I have asked if you are suggesting Mary, mother of Jesus, was not there.

There were THREE women named Mary at the Crucifixion of our Lord:.

John 19:25 (multiple translations to be sure that there aren't any questions): .

Douay-Rheims
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen..

King James Version
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. .

New International Version
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene..

Now, these are the woman Saint John (who, unlike Saints Matthew and Mark, was ALSO present and is speaking from his own personal experience and not what has been told to him) says was there: .

1. Mary, the mother of God
2. Mary, the wife of Cleophas (and presumably the sister of the Blessed Mother, though it is possible that the sister is a fourth woman who is not named) and the mother of James and Joses
3. Mary Magdalene .

Now, it seems to me that we have two choices:
1. We accept what Saint John wrote about the three Marys and conclude that Saints Matthew and Mark were only speaking of the two Marys being "afar off" and that they saw no need to mention that the mother of God was at the foot of the Cross with Saint John.
or
2. We determine that the Gospel of Saint John contradicts the Gospels of Saints Matthew and Mark. However, it must be pointed out that anyone who accepts this proposition must also be prepared to accept that EVERY VERSE in the Bible is false..

Keep in mind that Matthew 27:56 speaks of yet ANOTHER woman since it also mentions the mother of the sons of Zebedee and it has never been suggested that Saint James the Apostle and Saint John were relatives of Christ..

Your logic is fallacious in that it limits the possible conclusions when no less than three are reasonable.

However, when we consider that only one Gospel mentions Peter as the rock and the Catholic Church uses this one verse as "proof" of it's claim of "Papal Primacy".

RSV (IGNATIUS EDITION> MATTHEW 16:
18* And I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock * I will build my church, and the powers of death * shall not prevail against it.

Compare to parralel passage:

RSV (IGNATIUS EDITION) MARK 8:
29 And he asked them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, "You are the Christ."
30* And he charged them to tell no one about him.

By using your given choices we must conclude either Mark saw no need to mention the "Rock" thing -or- Matthew and Mark contradict each other and we must be prepared to accept that EVERY VERSE in the Bible is false.

John doesn't mention the following women, only Mary Magdalene, - is it false?

RSV (IGNATIUS EDITION) MARK Chapter 16:1* * And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

RSV (IGNATIUS EDITION) LUKE 24:
1* But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices which they had prepared.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
3 but when they went in they did not find the body.
* 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel;
5 and as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen." *
6* "Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,
7 that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise."
8 And they remembered his words,
9 and returning from the tomb they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest.
10* Now it was Mary Magdalene and Jo-anna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles;

It appears you are very selective in your "other Mary" choice or you are suggesting Mary, the mother of Jesus, didn't accompany the women. That would be strange wouldn't it?

3,043 posted on 11/23/2010 11:22:33 AM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: OLD REGGIE; annalex; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus; ...
Your logic is fallacious in that it limits the possible conclusions when no less than three are reasonable.

What is the third possibility you think is reasonable?

Do you deny that the Gospel of Saint John clearly lists THREE women named Mary at the Crucifixion?

However, when we consider that only one Gospel mentions Peter as the rock and the Catholic Church uses this one verse as "proof" of it's claim of "Papal Primacy".

Are you suggesting that the omission of some event is a denial? THREE Gospels list the women at the Crucifixion. Your comparison is meaningless.

By using your given choices we must conclude either Mark saw no need to mention the "Rock" thing -or- Matthew and Mark contradict each other and we must be prepared to accept that EVERY VERSE in the Bible is false.

What do you mean by "no need"? No, we can conclude nothing more than the fact that Saint Mark didn't record it.

We cannot take the absence of something as a contradiction. The Gospel of Saint John never mentions the Virgin Birth of the Lord, you don't honestly think he doubted it do you?

John doesn't mention the following women, only Mary Magdalene, - is it false?

RSV (IGNATIUS EDITION) MARK Chapter 16:1* * And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

RSV (IGNATIUS EDITION) LUKE 24:
1* But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices which they had prepared.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
3 but when they went in they did not find the body.
* 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel;
5 and as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen." *
6* "Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,
7 that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise."
8 And they remembered his words,
9 and returning from the tomb they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest.
10* Now it was Mary Magdalene and Jo-anna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles;

It appears you are very selective in your "other Mary" choice or you are suggesting Mary, the mother of Jesus, didn't accompany the women. That would be strange wouldn't it?

You are aware that the Crucifixion and the discovery of the Resurrection are two different events aren't you? Since none of the Gospels even speak of Mary, the Mother of God at the empty Tomb, it is very probable that she wasn't there.

I will accept the fact that you haven't even addressed the clear FACT that the Gospel of John speaks of Mary of Cleophas as a concession of the fact that there were three Mary's at the Crucifixion.

3,044 posted on 11/23/2010 11:49:56 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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