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To: smvoice; mas cerveza por favor; Religion Moderator; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer; ...
About those successors to the original twelve..Church historian Philip Schaff writes: "The oldest links in the chain of Roman bishops are veiled in impenetrable darkness." For that reason, it is impossible for the RCC to substantiate its claims of papal succession from Peter to the present Pope.- Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (Grand Rapids: eerdmans, 1910), vol. 2, pp. 164-165.

You have purported this to be a direct quote, in reality it is only a PARTIAL QUOTE and the remainder is YOUR COMMENTARY.

Here is the ACTUAL QUOTE which says something far different from what you claimed:

HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH, Chapter IV

The oldest links in the chain of Roman bishops are veiled in impenetrable darkness. Tertullian and most of the Latins (and the pseudo-Clementina), make Clement (Phil. 4:3), the first successor of Peter;228 but Irenaeus, Eusebius, and other Greeks, also Jerome and the Roman Catalogue, give him the third place, and put Linus (2 Tim. 4:21), and Anacletus (or Anincletus), between him and Peter.229 In some lists Cletus is substituted for Anacletus, in others the two are distinguished. Perhaps Linus and Anacletus acted during the life time of Paul and Peter as assistants or presided only over one part of the church, while Clement may have had charge of another branch; for at that early day, the government of the congregation composed of Jewish and Gentile Christian elements was not so centralized as it afterwards became. Furthermore, the earliest fathers, with a true sense of the distinction between the apostolic and episcopal offices, do not reckon Peter among the bishops of Rome at all; and the Roman Catalogue in placing Peter in the line of bishops, is strangely regardless of Paul, whose independent labors in Rome are attested not only by tradition, but by the clear witness of his own epistles and the book of Acts.

Lipsius, after a laborious critical comparison of the different catalogues of popes, arrives at the conclusion that Linus, Anacletus, and Clement were Roman presbyters (or presbyter-bishops in the N. T. sense of the term), at the close of the first century, Evaristus and Alexander presbyters at the beginning of the second, Xystus I. (Latinized: Sixtus), presbyter for ten years till about 128, Telesphorus for eleven years, till about 139, and next successors diocesan bishops.230

It must in justice be admitted, however, that the list of Roman bishops has by far the preeminence in age, completeness, integrity of succession, consistency of doctrine and policy, above every similar catalogue, not excepting those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople; and this must carry great weight with those who ground their views chiefly on external testimonies, without being able to rise to the free Protestant conception of Christianity and its history of development on earth.


1,900 posted on 11/15/2010 5:53:29 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Good catch.

Anti-Catholics are just full of intellectual dishonesty.


1,901 posted on 11/15/2010 6:04:11 AM PST by OpusatFR
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To: wagglebee
I am no longer surprised by this sort of intellectual/emotional dishonesty. Disgusted maybe, surprised no. Thank you for posting the actual quote in it's entirety.
1,902 posted on 11/15/2010 6:16:13 AM PST by Jaded (Stumbling blocks ALL AROUND, some of them camouflaged well. My toes hurt, but I got past them.)
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To: wagglebee

Excuse me, but I did not. I put his quote in quotation marks. That’s what a quotation mark is.


1,910 posted on 11/15/2010 7:19:46 AM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: wagglebee
And no, if you read what you quoted, you will see that the succession is indeed "veiled in impenetrable darkness", as the entire quote makes the point that one list says one thing, another another thing. That would be "impenetrable darkness."

Quotes are from Philip Schaff. If it's not in """", smvoice said it.

1,911 posted on 11/15/2010 7:28:29 AM PST by smvoice (Defending the Indefensible: The Pride of a Pawn.)
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To: wagglebee
The oldest links in the chain of Roman bishops are veiled in impenetrable darkness. Tertullian and most of the Latins (and the pseudo-Clementina), make Clement (Phil. 4:3), the first successor of Peter;228 but Irenaeus, Eusebius, and other Greeks, also Jerome and the Roman Catalogue, give him the third place, and put Linus (2 Tim. 4:21), and Anacletus (or Anincletus), between him and Peter

LOL. This "historian" claims "impenetrable darkness" on Peter's succession but then goes on to admit there are numerous references to the line from wide ranging sources. After Peter was executed by Roman authorities, there were a series of short-lived successors who were executed amidst an environment of secrecy and disorder. With such a great volume of evidence on Peter's line, it is not surprising to find discrepancies that leave out or confuse some of the short and secretive reins.

Your post clearly demonstrates that nobody doubts the fact that Peter had successors.

1,921 posted on 11/15/2010 8:09:07 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: wagglebee; smvoice; count-your-change; metmom

Thanks for pointing out the misleading quote from smvoice.


1,924 posted on 11/15/2010 8:17:57 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: wagglebee; smvoice; mas cerveza por favor; Jaded; Judith Anne; Legatus; maryz; NYer
Note: I have not pinged the Religion Moderator simply because I think the original ping was childish and unnecessary.

However, I will point out that your "quote" was incomplete and I can find no evidence that it was acknowledged. I will not accuse you of dishonesty nor will I call in a small army of hangers-on to smear you.

"It must in justice be admitted, however, that the list of Roman bishops has by far the preeminence in age, completeness, integrity of succession, consistency of doctrine and policy, above every similar catalogue,..."

Given that the list "has by far the premenince in age..." at the time the book was written in no way is an indication that it is, or was, historically correct.

The current List of Popes, like all prior lists, is a matter of "constructed" history and cannot be construed as complete and accurate.

This "fluid" list has constantly been revised and is subject to change to this very day.

Corrections Made to Official List of Popes

New historical research has prompted almost 200 corrections to the existing biographies of the Popes, from St. Peter to John Paul II.

The discoveries are included in the opening pages of the new edition of the "Pontifical Yearbook 2001," the "who's who" of the Catholic Church published by the Vatican Press.

The 13 pages entailed are the most rigorous study to date on the history of the papacy, confirming the uninterrupted succession of the Bishops of Rome. Researchers, however, are uncertain of the exact dates of the first pontificates and, in one case, doubt the exact order. This is why the yearbook does not assign a succession number to each pontiff.

CORRECTIONS TO THE LIST OF POPES

2,086 posted on 11/15/2010 2:07:22 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: wagglebee; mas cerveza por favor; OpusatFR; Jaded; smvoice; count-your-change; OLD REGGIE; ...
lol. It's pretty funny when the RC apologist reads Philip Schaff and sees support for Rome. It's not there. Read his conclusion...

"...It must in justice be admitted, however, that the list of Roman bishops has by far the preeminence in age, completeness, integrity of succession, consistency of doctrine and policy, above every similar catalogue, not excepting those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople; and this must carry great weight with those who ground their views chiefly on external testimonies, without being able to rise to the free Protestant conception of Christianity and its history of development on earth."

Schaff is saying that Rome has been fairly consistent in its apostasy and superstition, and this consistency appeals to RC apologists who do not base their beliefs on Scripture but upon "external testimonies." Thus they are incapable of achieving the Biblical validity of Protestants.

Keep reading Schaff. It can only help.

2,295 posted on 11/16/2010 7:58:00 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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