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To: metmom; Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums
why, if the Catholic church wrote the Bible, did it have Paul make that the major theme of his epistles

The importance of faith for salvation is the major theme of two epistles, to the Romans and to the Galatians. None of the two -- nor any other scripture teaches that we are saved by faith ALONE. That latter part is the invention of Luther. Why do the Romans and Galatians focus on the role of faith? Because, first, faith is very important -- a sane person would not do the works of charity unless he had faith. The focus in Romans and Galatians is to correct the judaizing heresy that held that the obedience to Jewish Law -- circumcision and dietetic rules -- was a precondition to Christianity. So St. Paul stresses that in Christ there si no Jew or Greek -- we are Christians because we have faith in Christ. Circumcision has nothing to do with it. Generally, works done out of a legal obligation, or for a reward in this life, e.g. social recogniton or salary -- do not contribute to salvation. That is waht St. Paul teaches in Romans and Galatians and that is what the Catholic Church teaches also.

Even the publican was considered justified by Jesus simply for asking God for mercy. There's the thief on the cross who did nothing but believe

The publican would be justified if the gave his possessions to charity and swindled people no more. The penitent publican in the temple is like any penitent in the Church today: justified so long as he sins no more. If a penitent sins again, he needs to repent again or else he is no longer justified. See the story of Zacheus (Luke 19:8). The Good Thief did quite a bit: the repented of his crime, suffered for it, defended the innocent and asked Christ to take him to heaven. He died a good Catholic death.

Don't give us any of this nonsense that Luther invented these things out of thin air when anyone can get it out of the Bible

Ephesians 2 clearly teaches that good works must accompany faith in order for us to be saved. I already commented on Romans iand Galatians. Luther invented his theory. It was not an innocent mistake -- he was an educated man.

1,815 posted on 11/14/2010 1:17:49 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...
Generally, works done out of a legal obligation, or for a reward in this life, e.g. social recogniton or salary -- do not contribute to salvation. That is waht St. Paul teaches in Romans and Galatians and that is what the Catholic Church teaches also.

That is absolutely NOT true.

The Catholic church has set up its own system of works to replace the Law Jesus died to fulfill and if you don't do them within the framework of the Catholic church, well, sucks to be you.

While those raised non-Catholic might be deluded into believing that because they don't know any better, those of us who have been raised Catholic DO know better. Catholicism is based on works start to finish and beyond.....

1,820 posted on 11/14/2010 1:38:41 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: annalex; metmom
The importance of faith for salvation is the major theme of two epistles, to the Romans and to the Galatians. None of the two -- nor any other scripture teaches that we are saved by faith ALONE.

I would suggest a restudy of Romans and Galatians

Romans 1:17-18: "Therefore the just shall live by faith. The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness."

Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Romans 4:5: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Romans 5:1: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Romans 11:6: "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Romans 14:23: "...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Galatians 2:21: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Galatians 3:1-3; 9-14; 21-25: "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Receive ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? ... So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.... Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the Scripture harh concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Galatians 5:4,5: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

This is important for Catholics to read because they do believe keeping the law is necessary for salvation ..

Because, first, faith is very important -- a sane person would not do the works of charity unless he had faith.

Says who? Do you have evidence of this?? Think of Ted Turner as a prime example..

Generally, works done out of a legal obligation, or for a reward in this life, e.g. social recogniton or salary -- do not contribute to salvation. That is waht St. Paul teaches in Romans and Galatians and that is what the Catholic Church teaches also.

Works done to earn your salvation have no credit... God is not mocked.. he is not for sale, the blood of Christ is not for sale, salvation does not go to the hardest worker or highest bidder...

Men can do NOTHING pleasing to God, so trying to offer works He sees as sin to purchase your salvation deserves what they get .. Hells fire..

The only works that please God are those he does through us, and those works flow from our salvation ..they do not earn it

1,828 posted on 11/14/2010 2:05:10 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: annalex; metmom; RnMomof7; HarleyD; editor-surveyor; OLD REGGIE; 1000 silverlings; Quix
Ephesians 2 clearly teaches that good works must accompany faith in order for us to be saved.

Which verses from Eph. 2 would be saying that? If, by some long shot, you are referencing Eph. 2:10, then you are clearly misunderstanding Paul.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." - Eph. 2:10

Here Paul tells us the "we are His workmanship," which means the good works we do were first ordained by God the Father and accomplished by God the Son and imputed to us by God the Holy Spirit, all for the glory of God.

God beholds Jesus Christ in us and that is what He loves. Not our own works which are as "filthy rags."

1,856 posted on 11/14/2010 5:08:02 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: annalex; metmom; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums
Ephesians 2 clearly teaches that good works must accompany faith in order for us to be saved. I already commented on Romans iand Galatians. Luther invented his theory. It was not an innocent mistake -- he was an educated man.

You already commented on Romans and Galatians showing a lack of understanding

Ephesian's was written to a CHURCH ,saved men and women.. It was not a letter on HOW TO BE SAVED

Read the first verse .. 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone
; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Here it is, an epistle written to the saints , not about how to be saved but teaching them that their salvation is to the Glory of God, not themselves.. crediting God and His grace and His mercy NOT their works.. teaching that all the works they do are ORDAINED by God..God working in them and through them

Annalex it produces great sadness when we se the truth of 1Cr 2:14

1,872 posted on 11/14/2010 6:54:16 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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