I think it is quite easy to determine if an INFALLIBLE teaching came from Christ and not fallible men... is it a directive found in the scriptures
On what do you base this assertion? Did any Christian prior to the Sixteenth Century share the same viewpoint?
So lets start there.. Where did Christ teach apostolic succession? And the infallibility of the church ?
I will answer only under protest since we cannot establish a shared historical framework for evaluating basic reality. Hence we are doomed to forever squabble over comparisons of apples with oranges.
Anyway, apostolic succession was defined at the end of Acts 1 when Peter led the eleven Apostles to choose Matthias as the successor to Judas. One of the many scriptural demonstrations of Church infallibility is the Holy Spirit inspired First Church Council in Jerusalem where Peter chaired a meeting to establish rules for Gentile converts.
Unfortunately, if you consider yourself unbound to any historical framework, you could spin these strait-forward scriptural references a thousand different ways.
How about "church Fathers?" Will that do?
"They [heretics] gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures...We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith" - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3.1.1
"I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else." - Jerome (Letter 53:10)
"There is, brethren, one God, ,font color=red>the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scripture declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and as the Father wills our belief to be, let us believe; and as He wills the Son to be glorified, let us glorify Him; and as He wills the Holy Spirit to be bestowed, let us receive Him. Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God, but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them." - Hippolytus, Against Noetus, ch 9
which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?" - Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
"We use Scripture to answer heresy and preceive that it is power and truth." - Basil the Great
“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.” - Gregory of Nyssa (d.ca, 395) “On the Holy Trinity”, NPNF, p. 327
“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.” - Basil the Great (ca.329–379) On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.” - Augustine (354–430) De unitate ecclesiae, 10
“For our faith rests on the revelation made to the Prophets and Apostles who wrote the canonical books.” - Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274) Summa Theologiae, Question 1, Art. 8
"For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,--to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages." - Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 2:9)
WRONG, as has been pointed out a hundred times. James presided over the council, not Peter. Acts 15:19, AGAIN. Not so infallible, that Church "fact".
Jesus tells us in John 6 that He knows that he will be betrayed by one of the apostles.. yet He gave no directions to replace that fallen apostle, he gave no permission or instructions regarding that. He taught many things..but never that
Peter was known for his rushing off on his own ... In Acts one there was no church, the Holy Spirit did not indwell those gathered ..
So we see the apostles ..prior to receiving the Holy Spirit make a decision to replace Judas . The "drew lots"..when did Christ ever give that as a spiritual method?
So they select Matthias ..who is NEVER HEARD FROM AGAIN in the inspired word of God
This was a decision of men not God just as the doctrine of apostolic succession is . God had ordained a replacement for Judas , He had prepared Hm for the role of catechist of the new church, God called him and gave him authority ..
BTW the word apostle is one sent forth with a message.. In scripture we see other men, not selected by Peter called apostles.. Barnabas, Timothy and Silvanus
The idea of apostolic succession is made up out of whole cloth
All I ask is for an infallible source.. it is apparent that you do not have one ... Think about it.. Catholics trust the men telling them they are infallible to really be infallible ...
Sola Ecclesia Romanus
Only the Church of Rome is the Rule of Faith
Acts 1:15-26 15In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said, 16"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20"For it is written in the Book of Psalms,
"'May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it';
and
"'Let another take his office.'
21So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection." 23And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Is that how the Catholic church picks its popes these days? Casting lots like Peter suggested?
The church followed the leading of Peter in this and look what happened. Peter's first act as the new *pope* and he blows it. Matthias just drops off the face of the earth, or at least the pages of the Bible after that. This is the ONLY mention of him in the NT.
If that's an example of scriptural demonstrations of Church infallibility, the church is in big trouble.
One of the many scriptural demonstrations of Church infallibility is the Holy Spirit inspired First Church Council in Jerusalem where Peter chaired a meeting to establish rules for Gentile converts.
Acts 15:13-2313After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, 17that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.'
19Therefore my [that is James] judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23with the following letter:
Peter played a very small role in this discussion. He only related his experience and there's NO indication that he chaired it. That's only a presumption because Scripture doesn't say otherwise.
Peters actions were the CAUSE of that council, James was the leader in that council
AS the 1st church met in Jerusalem it was presided over by James not Peter.
It is clear here that James was in charge of that council and that it was James that made the final ruling.
Peter was part of the problem not the solution
Please READ the words of James
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace,James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
Not to Peter, listen" to ME"
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore MY sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
That is James making the decision NOT PETER
Can the Pope be OVERRULED in matters of faith? That should be your first clue that he was not in charge and that he was not infallible . For he was in error on this serious matter and was taken to task by Paul
Peter never claimed headship for himself. He was a humble man that would rebuke what is said of him today
Peter was the apostle to the Jews ..not the Roman gentiles
"The gospel of the CIRCUMCISION was unto Peter; (For He that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)" (Gal. 2:7-8).
It was Paul not Peter that wrote doctrinal letters to the Romans and Ephesian Church
PETER is NOWHERE called the Apostle to the Gentiles! This would have kept him from going to Rome to become the head of a Gentile church. He would have been in rebellion to the call of God on him if he had gone to the gentiles
It is Paul that wanted to build the church at Rome. That fact proved that Peter was not the "bishop " of Rome. As Paul told us he would not build on another foundation.
"Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, LEST I SHOULD BUILD UPON ANOTHER MAN’S FOUNDATION" (Rom. 15:20).
When Paul wrote to the church at Rome Peters name is no where listed
Around 45 A.D., we find Peter being cast into prison at Jerusalem (Acts 12:3, 4). In 49 A.D., he was still in Jerusalem, this time attending the Jerusalem Council. About 51 A.D., he was in Antioch of Syria where he got into differences with Paul because he wouldn't sit or eat with Gentiles.
66 A.D., we find him in the city of Babylon among the Jews (I Pet. 5:13). Peter was the Apostle to the CIRCUMCISED.History shows that there were as many Jews in the Mesopotamian areas in Christ’s time as there were in Palestine.
Peter was an obedient apostle Of Christ and he carried out with honor the work the Lord had ordained for him to do , and that work never included being a bishop to a gentile church
That they did attempt.... but God had another in mind and in His time, not mans. Men do have a need to determine how they will go about doing Gods work without First consulting Him if the action itself is His will. In this case they jumped ahead of God, and as we see Matthias is hardly if at all mentioned in scripture thereafter. The stretch one has to make using Peter, does not suit the scripture context...rather to do this twists the meaning.
Of course we know that is not true since that same group didn't draw straws for an new apostle after James was killed...
God chose ALL of the apostles...Peter and the crew took it upon themselves to pick their own replacement...And even then, they couldn't agree...
After the initial 12, God chose the 13th apostle who was Paul...