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To: RnMomof7
"GOOD catholics, that follow the church and her teachings would go to hell..."

This just shows the contempt Calvinists have for the teachings of a loving and forgiving God that they would believe that Good people, striving to follow Christ would go to hell. It shows that the Calvinist concept of sin is not that it requires a conscious choice of evil over good, but a failure of coerced conformance to a set of rules. This is not at all like the Catholic belief that to obey (from the Latin ob-audire, to "hear or listen to") in faith is to submit freely to the word that has been heard.

This makes me better understand the Calvinist rejection of works since works reluctantly performed are not a gift to God and will not help with ones Salvation.

1,581 posted on 11/12/2010 5:09:14 PM PST by Natural Law (lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi)
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To: Natural Law
This just shows the contempt Calvinists have for the teachings of a loving and forgiving God that they would believe that Good people, striving to follow Christ would go to hell.

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.

Can you not see my point? What you have written is not a salvation by grace but of wages earned..God owes men NOTHING but the fire of Hell..

There is no such thing a a 'GOOD 'person in Gods eyes. EVERY man has broken His laws, every man deserved to have His judgement.. Hell will be full of people that think they are "good" . Hell will be full of people that think the others with them were "good" people... But we are not judged by the standards of men, we are judged by the standard of God.

Jesus came to do what we could never do.. then his "report card " which had all A's on it is given to those that repent and He takes their report card filled with F's to the cross.. jesus came to fulfill the law for us..(2 Corinthians 5:21)

The pride of men want to earn heaven ... Trusting in one's self, trusting in rules, trusting in works gives men the glory ...not Christ ..

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.” (John 11:25)

1,586 posted on 11/12/2010 5:27:32 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Gal 4:16 asks "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?")
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To: Natural Law; RnMomof7
Wow, this is a target rich environment. Yet you do bring up some solid topics of discussion.
This just shows the contempt Calvinists have for the teachings of a loving and forgiving God that they would believe that Good people, striving to follow Christ would go to hell.

I guess the contempt "Calvinists" would have for such teachings depends on what exactly is being taught in terms of a "loving and forgiving god". What you do offer for us to consider is the person who is:

"to follow Christ" is "Religious-speak" for God only knows what, it is sort of a Rorschach test for each person. A spiritual Mad-lib where you insert whatever work you want to trade in for God's alleged approval. This is sort of blasphemous because it says that man can initiate covenants with God and obligate Him to our vanity quid pro quos.

Rather, it is fascinating to see what the Scriptures have to say about what it is to "follow". Let's start in an odd place where we have a contrast with the same word.

John 13:36 "Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward."

Being that this passage is from the famous prediction of Peter's denial of Christ, it is pretty obvious that the first "follow" refers to the Cross. Jesus is pretty much saying, that this aspect of "following Christ" isn't to die nailed to a tree.

Now skip back a bit to yet another confrontation with the Scribes and Pharisees - who, by the way, were experts on following God's commandments.

John 8:21 "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come."

The reprobated Pharisees immediately thought of the Grave, and that He would commit suicide. Our LORD clarified it by saying "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.". Contrast this statement of our LORD to the Pharisees to the one that He speaks to Peter. In the case of those who had "works righteousness" down to a literal science, they were told that in all of their works, they COULD NOT follow Christ. Peter, OTOH, was promised that he would follow Christ without any mention of works.

The Scribes and the Pharisees were well known for their obedience to the Law. Do you think that Jesus Christ was thinking of "works" when He said "Follow Me" in the second phrase to Peter? Here is another hint:

John 12:26"If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

The plot thickens, for He makes "Following" Him a consequence of serving Him. That is, "to follow Christ" is not works as it is treated differently than service to our LORD. Furthermore, He says "where I am, My servant will be also". Clearly, to "follow" Christ is not talking about works, but is something that Reprobates CAN'T do but the Saved CAN do. The experts in the Law could do all the Godly works they so desired, but after all of that work, they would still not be with Him.

Need more?

Matthew 19:16-22, Mark 10:17-22, or Luke 18:18-23. All the same, where our LORD counsels the Rich Young Ruler to first keep the commandments, to which the young man claimed he had faithfully followed all of the Law. Then our LORD told him to sell all of his possessions (a "work" no where found in the Law) where he would then have "treasure in heaven". Basically, our LORD said that the man could keep all of his valuables, except they would be transformed and relocated to heaven. (unlike the bilge you hear from so many pastors during Stewardship Month when they have an underfunded building program on their hands).

When the man didn't like the deal, he declined because his mind clearly was not on Heaven, but on the here and now. He valued temporal life more than eternal life. Thus, when given the choice of heaven or earth, he chose earth. What were our LORD's last words to Him after telling him to exchange all of his temporal goods for heavenly ones? He added, "and come, follow Me."

Coincidence? Hardly. To follow Christ means to be with Him in Paradise. It means to value the things above more than the things below. The Scribes and Pharisees were Reprobates - Predestined to damnation and that is why, no matter how obedient to the Law they were, they would never be able to "Follow Me". That is why God told Peter that "later" he would not only be able, but will indeed "Follow Me", because later, Peter would join our LORD in heaven.

The Scribes and Pharisees "strived to follow" through obedience to the Law, to find their righteousness in works rather than Grace. To Peter, there was no mention of works, no mention of striving, indeed, the Promise came immediately behind a rebuke. There was no, "if", no fine print, no sunset language or contingencies when our LORD told Peter that he would indeed "follow" Christ afterwards. The Promise to Peter was not due to Peter's merit, past or future, it was unmerited, it was Grace Alone.

This is yet another passage of predestination and Calvinism in full view. Here, the Scribes and Pharisees were predestined to Hell. Another passage that must be the most terrifying in Scripture is John 10:26, to the same audience our LORD declares their reprobation.

John 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."

Notice that due to the Closed Book Principle found in 1 Corinthians 2:14, the Scribes would never be able to believe and thus will die in their sins because they were not Chosen by God to be part of the Father's flock given to Christ. This is what Jesus said to them. Terrifying indeed for the Almighty God to say to your face that you will be eternally estranged from God.

In Peter's denial, we have a picture of the natural man, not understanding the things of God, and thus the "Get Behind Me Satan" Peter demonstrated his misunderstanding of our LORD's tasks yet again. What is beautiful to see is that in this condemnation, there was the promise of regeneration, salvation and eternal life with our Savior in the phrase "and you shall Follow Me afterwards". To be with Christ requires Election by God and salvation. And here our LORD said in few words the Promise of Redemption that began in the Garden and perfected at Calvary.

And you thought Calvinists couldn't see God's love. We see it in places you Romanists would never find it.

1,599 posted on 11/12/2010 6:39:36 PM PST by The Theophilus
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