Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Kosta: There is no objective evidence of that. It's a demand placed on the faithful by the Church since Trent
Well, by faith.
Then say so. Just saying "scripture is inerrant" is (mis)leading unless you add "by faith", and only by faith.
Or rather, what the Jews saw darkly the Christians see clearly
Every sect/cult makes the same stupid argument in its favor, Alex. Try this: Or rather, what the Jews Christians saw darkly the Christians Mormons see clearly.
People die for their faiths. They believe every bit as you do that their version is the one true religion, their god one true god and their books one true scripture.
Trouble is—there is not a single shred of objective, provable evidence that it is, except by faith, and faith alone.
I believe it is an evolutionary process to come to that realization, and a matter of extraordinary maturity, and honesty, to admit it. But, then, not everyone evolves.
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I live in the diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana and the pope chose our new bishop, no one even asked me my opinion nor would I have been able to give an intelligent one. The churches of the revolution (not reformation) are irrelevant because they chose not to participate in true Christianity....too bad for them, but they have no say in anything
Christ said we are to discern the sheep from the goats by the fruit of their lives.
Rome’s fruit is bitter because it leads men away from Christ and towards “another Christ” and a “co-redeemer” and “other mediators.”
Here’s just one corrupted apple...
Read your Bible and learn how pastors were chosen in the early church. Rome is a property management company run by pederasts masquerading as men of God.
These happen in all denominations, and ALL of these molesters are to be condemned -- yet to say that their actions, the actions of the 2% or less (actually only 0.53% of all such pastors are actually convicted) should be describing Christianity as a whole?
Read your bible and learn how the OPC is a small cult of 20,000 that keeps corrupting the Bible.
The fact is that your cult is 20,000 only and the number of pastors is about 200. The number of pastors in the Catholic Church that have been these scum (and may they rot in hell) was 0.53% (and these crimes date to the 60s-70s). So, let's see, 0.53% of 200 is 1.
You guys have had more than 1 bad pastor, the OPC just shuffles things nicely under the carpet because it's a tiny cult and shrinking fast.
First between true and false conversion. The Bible recognizes that not everyone who says he believes in Christ really doesVoilą! (by the way, that means "see there" in French) -- the followers of Calvin-Machen use their rubber dictionaries to say "Oh, they never were Christian in the first place!"
Salvation of Infants Who DieThe OPC believes that God pre-damns infants to eternal hell. This isn't the Christian God of Love.
The Confession entertains the idea that at least some infants who die in infancy and some others "who are incapable of being outwardly called" are among the elect.
However, the Confession does not say that all such infants, etc., are saved.
| 12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live. |
| John 4:42 describes Christ as "the Savior of the world," 1 John 2:2 Christ "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 Timothy 4:10 God is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." |
| "Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the Gospel." Arthur C. Custance, The Sovereignty of Grace, 1979. |
| "Calvinism is evangelicalism in its purest and only stable expression." B.B. Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, ed. Samuel G. Craig, 1956. |
| "We believe with the great Baptist preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, that Calvinism is just another name for Christianity." John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism, 1991. |
the Presbyterian church funded Angela Davis’ defense,
Thus, the Report continues the conspiracy of silence that has prevailed in the OPC for three decades. It leaves the erroneous impression that the serious doctrinal problems are outside the denomination, not within it. The Report gives false comfort to those who think the OPC is still a bastion of Biblical orthodoxy. On the contrary, the Report, and the 2006 General Assembly’s commendation of it, both maintain the OPC as a safe haven for those who teach erroryou can read the details at the link on page 109 why the Former Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) ruling elder Paul M. Elliott says that
.....
Men within the OPC, including at least one member of the Committee itself, teach heresy regarding the Gospel and many other fundamentals of the faith.
The author’s thesis is that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) is today exactly where the PCUSA was back then.
| The Orthodox Presbyterian Church was founded in 1936 by about 135 people who were offended by the lack of discipline in and doctrinal errors of the Presbyterian Church in the USA. . But early in its history the OPC fell under the influence of an agnostic view of propositional revelation emanating from Westminster Seminary -- a view that said that there is no identity of content between the \"Christian system\" of theology, meaning Reformed confessions of faith, and the \"divine system\" of theology, known only to God. This agnosticism has now brought the OPC to the point of falling. Like its predecessor, the PCUSA, the OPC has failed to discipline teachers who teach contrary to Scriptures and the Confession of Faith, and it has endorsed un-Biblical teaching about Scripture and the Gospel. |
| Despite the painstaking efforts of many fine Christians within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC), the leaders of the OPC maintain a suicidal course. Despite the departure of congregations and individuals from the OPC, due to the leaders' collective inability to resolve the current justification controversy Biblically, the OPC leaders continue to advance doctrines that contradict Scripture. The OPC is, in the words of its late historian Charles Dennison, "obviously inept, bumbling, [and] confused."1 That confusion now appears to be fatal. At this point in its history, the confessional affirmations of the OPC have no more credibility than the confessional affirmations of the PCUSA from 1936 to 1967. One of the commissioners to the 2004 OPC General Assembly made this very point: "There was a time when, if the OPC said it, it was accepted. The 2003 deliverance that accompanied the decision to acquit [John Kinnaird] destroyed forever that our words will not be questioned. The PCUSA always said that the [Westminster] Confession was their confession (even as they were denying it)." |
The Presbyterian sect is simply flailing at wind as one more new denomination whose ancestors were deceived or dissident, or ignorant, and cooperated with the dropped 3/4 of the Christian faith and practices
To join your cult, the OPC, one must reject all of God's teachings and stop being a follower of Christ and become a follower of Calvin.
Follower of Calvin? Really? Could you please indicate in any of Calvin's writings where he said that? From my study of Calvin, I think he would be horrified to know that we have attached his name to any discipline of Biblical teaching. Evident particularly in the way that he denounces centralized anthropic teachings, his own words makes your claim regarding him absurd.
For Calvin teaches that one does not need to believe in Christ but one is part of an elite brahmin caste.
That is so over the top that I have no idea what Biblical doctrine your are trying to ridicule. It seems to me that you are laying out a choice in how people deal with you and your posts. Crap like this is virtual zot bait, in that as far as the admins allow, you can post this kind of dreck yet discover that you have been tuned out by your prospective audience. Or you can attempt to demonstrate some level of civility and respect for others and have a rational discussion.
Smackdown rhetoric can be fun, but calling the Remnant members of a cult? That isn't even heckling, its very much like the taunts and jeers of your typical Teamsters or SEIU thug. Don't be surprised if you have no friends in FR after posting this kind of junk.
Follower of Calvin —> that’s the OPC. Are you in the OPC?
Follower of Calvin —> that’s the OPC. Are you in the OPC?
Me? I'm more of a John Gill/Charles Spurgeon styled Reformed Baptist who isn't hung up on baptism. A theological mutt if you will. Given that, I am sort of in exile because there isn't a local assembly anywhere approaching that flavor where I reside. A decade ago, I plead my case to some trusted friends and among the recommendations was an OPC within reasonable distance. I have been attending that assembly for the better part of a decade now, and might add, not once has the Pastor set aside the Bible and preached out of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. I believe the Pastor's doctorate dissertation was based on Jonathan Edwards, the missionary to the native Americans.
Though I sit patiently and quietly through the paedo-baptism ceremonies, I haven't found anything objectionable being preached there. There are no paintings of Calvin, his name might be mentioned once or twice a year, ICR can be found in the "bookstore" along with home schooling materials, things from AiG, Sproul, a book or two by your former villain Gresham Machen, Pink and a host of other books and evangelical tools. Honestly, I can't find any signs of Calvin worship in nearly a decade of attendance.
In fact, a number of our friends left to attend a local PCA because they liked the high church format and that assembly has chosen to go down the Federal Vision path and all that it entails. As far as I know, the elders didn't dispatch a goon squad to "convince" them to return, nor was there an excommunication rally. We didn't burn anyone or any effigy at the stake in the church parking-lot nor brand anyone a heretic.
Having attended quite a number post-Eucharist potluck meals, never once have we been offered or told to drink the Kool-Aid. (I don't recall even seeing Kool-Aid available).
So I have been in the trenches, not as a proper voting member, but as a regular attendee, good friends with the congregation, the clergy and the full board of elders and deacons, and pastors of most of the Texas assemblies and all I find is genuine koinonia, solid biblical teaching, and a faithful assembly of the saints of God.
Maybe now you can understand why I find your claims way out of line - it comes no where to my experience with the OPC. In fact, we should all be thankful that the OPC has not followed the winds of change and the vanities of pop culture and "new ways of interpreting Scripture". The OPC doesn't have the usual grab-ass and nonsense found in Big Boxes, we don't have our pastor swinging down from the rafters in a Bataman costume, nor do we have truck rallies in the auditorium to attract the unchurched. Most of our hymns we sing weren't even written in the past century, we don't have sports figures delivering messages, rock bands to entertain the crowds, or skits to manipulate the kids to go to summer camp.
So please, tell me, where do find evidence of this freak show you keep talking about?
This Trinity Foundation website says "Last year The Trinity Foundation published Paul Elliott’s book, Christianity and Neo-Liberalism: The Spiritual Crisis in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Beyond. That book examines in detail the false doctrine of salvation now being taught in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church
The above website says
Thus, the Report continues the conspiracy of silence that has prevailed in the OPC for three decades. It leaves the erroneous impression that the serious doctrinal problems are outside the denomination, not within it. The Report gives false comfort to those who think the OPC is still a bastion of Biblical orthodoxy. On the contrary, the Report, and the 2006 General Assembly’s commendation of it, both maintain the OPC as a safe haven for those who teach erroryou can read the details at the link on page 109 why the Former Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) ruling elder Paul M. Elliott says that
.....
Men within the OPC, including at least one member of the Committee itself, teach heresy regarding the Gospel and many other fundamentals of the faith.
The author’s thesis is that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) is today exactly where the PCUSA was back then.
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