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God spoke. Through his Son Jesus Christ. Our Savior.

Why are you pretending to not know what I am talking about? Previous threads say otherwise. The first vision is common knowledge amongst all church members and anti-Mormons as well.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1

Lurkers, read this account. It really happened. Find out the truth for yourself.

Okay this is going to take some time and I am starting to see how LDS came about and how Joseph Smith came to his viewpoint.

Though one has to concede that Joseph Smith, at that time was doing the same exact thing as follows:

The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.

So now I understand why Joseph Smith was more pointed about the Presbyterians as his view was Presbyterian where more strident than others in their “sophistry to prove ...errors...”.

Their was at that time a great religous movement going on and with time I will be able write something more cogent.

Getting back to reading JOSEPH SMITH—HISTORY.

Thanks

The first vision is common knowledge amongst all church members and anti-Mormons as well.

Lurkers, it is important to note that the car salesman is extending his usual pitch. What he WON'T tell you is that the link is to only ONE of NINE different and contradictory accounts of the so-called "first vision" THAT SMITH HIMSELF originated. I would encourage those interested in reading about these other accounts - as well as viewing copies of the origionals to go to this link.

Additional discussion regarding these visions can be read at this link.

Mormon Grant Palmer in his book " An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" makes this observation about the real history around Smith's 'first vision' stories -

"After a mass exodus of high-ranking church leaders including several apostles, all three special witnesses of the BOM and three of the eight witnesses to the BOM, Joseph took to reestablishing his authority. He made many changes to the church including changing the name of the church. He began by attacking those who were circulating unsavory "reports" regarding "the rise and progress of the Church", then told a revised and more impressive version of his epiphany.

He announced that his initial calling had not come from an angel in 1823, as he had said for over a decade, but from God the Father and Jesus Christ in 1820. The earlier date established his mission independent of the troubling questions and former witnesses associated with the Book of Mormon. Like the priesthood restoration recitals, the first vision version of April 1838 added significant material that bolstered his authority during a time of crisis."

Is this material what the car salesman directs you to? No, he wants to sell you the car. Good consumer research such as I've provided gives you information that he doesn't want you to read. Find out the truth for yourself.

Don't let the car salesman snooker you.

It's an assumption on the part of mormons to believe that. JS never recorded that he was speaking to God or that Jesus was speaking to him.

The use of the word "Personages" is in no way an adequate description of God and Jesus, I don't care how you try to spin that.

• 1 John:

4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.

6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

First off, the warning about testing the spirits and the fact that false prophets would be known by their worldliness. Well, JS was quite worldly. Sex, booze, coveteousness, etc. Many of the things JS did while he was the "prophet" were the behaviors that are in direct contradiction of a Godly man. There were a lot "convenient" "revelations" that "permitted" him a great deal of latitude.

Secondly, the "personages" description and the failure of the spirits to clearly identify and confess Jesus during the purported 1st vision.

The narrative (1st vision, [pick a version]) is ambiguous, it does not clearly state that God and Jesus, came down, nor does he claim to have heard the name of Jesus, just "this is my beloved son..." (That IS NOT "confessing" Jesus). It's implied through the use of descriptive language. But at no time does the personage(spirit) state absolutely that it was Jesus who was going to "speak" to JS.

Wishing something to be true doesn't make it true.

From your link and Joseph Smiths mouth.....which accounts for mormons belief they have been "abused" from the get go til today. Their victimhood is passed on thru the centuries...passed down from the man Smith himself. Which is why Mormonism is in "defensive" mode 24/7...rather than being open to Christ's correction on their teachings and their falsehoods. Joseph Smith would not listen to correction and neither do his followers once they are indoctrinated...it is relatively easy to identify those who have gone the gammet.....the brick wall is obvious. They all copy Smith rather than yield to Christ.

Here's Smiths quote......" Owing to the many reports which have been put in circulation.... by evil-disposed and designing persons,..... in relation to the rise and progress of the Church of Jesus Christ of aLatter-day Saints,... all of which have been designed by the authors thereof to militate against its character as a Church and its progress in the world.......I have been induced to write this history, to disabuse the public mind, and put all inquirers after truth in possession of the bfacts, as they have transpired, in relation both to myself and the Church,.....

I read Smiths account....it's a 15 yr. old who was raised in a family who first of all were well acquainted and practiced witchcraft and a host of other "crafts"...... His parents choices to participate in the cults left Smith exposed to demonic activity.. as does even today for those who practice....

.... Therefore no wonder he believed he had a vision, he was already very much primed to believe in visions and apparition's, years in fact.....and he likely did see spirits. But most assuredly it was not from heaven as he believed might be....rather he was open to demonic influences regardless what his intentions were to seek God or not..... Further he stated unitl that moment he had not once verb-ably prayed....which speaks volumes as well.... This pattern is not unusual in families who are exposed to cult practices and the ritual practices formed.

It is noteworthy that the clergy he spoke with were quick to denounce Smiths activities and called them what they were. No doubt they were aware of the families involvements in witchcraft and the other arts so warning Smith was certainly correct to do...and firmly so. But he ignored those warnings.

He does not mention praying further ...which is also noteworthy...indicating he is on his own mission to "experience" and "feel" what he first knew....and is very common to those who have apparitions...it is not only the visual sought but generally as well, if not moreso in many cases, the feelings that go with those experience.

Additionally, we know well that satan and his hoard rarely present themselves as they are...rather "angels of lights"... and with this special names for themselves..again appealing to the "specialness of the event by making it personal in order to draw Smith deeper into their arena of influence.

As one notices Smith speaks much of his feelings throughout these happenings...and his heightened anxieties....most notable in teenagers and young men. Teenagers are wired for feeling type experiences in life...Smith was no different.

The fact he was ostracized in the community was to be expected at that time...Christianity was swift, in that era, to not only speak out against such things but to act on them. His exclusion from the community was an acceptable and frankly proper way to handle Smith as he continued to flaunt his experience.

...enough tonight on this..need to get to bed...more tomorrow.zzzz-z-z----zzzzz time.