GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES: The Occult Worldview of Mormonism

Crown Rights Book Company ^ | 1995-2005 | Greg Loren Durand

[Godzilla]

As I go back and read over the “opposing viewpoint” I find it really funny how it is actually a Trinitarian Position being hammered into a mold to allow for Polytheism.

When one considers the wails of grief that billow forth from some concerning our alleged 'ignorance' of mormonism; combined with the dubious interpretations presented that demonstrate abysmal understanding of the Trinity, I have to agree - it is funny.

Rom 1:22 KJV - Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

[MHGinTN]

As I was mentioning ... "I dunno, I guess you are even more of a literalist than I am which is quite an accomplishment since I am autistic." I do have to ask though, is that a handicap or an excuse? ... 'they are without excuse' comes to mind from Romans 1:20 if it is an excuse.

[DelphiUser]

a singular God that has a plurality.

A HA! so you are a polytheist! </Anti mode>

Lurkers will note – Du consistently abuses the Greek definition of the word for ‘Godhead’ (theotes) yet refuses to justify his use – other than his ‘say-so’.

Boy, is this going to be fun...

So, here is a link now, before you go all "supporting "bad" sites" on me, I only read the one article, and I don't even agree with all of it, but it does have links and quotations from Concordances and lexicons and I don't want to cut and paste without attribution...

Thus, lexicons give expressions such as: divinity, deity, godhead, divine nature, divine being. But what do these expressions mean? An examination of some English dictionaries reveals that the meanings of these words is considerably broader than some Trinitarians would like them to be.

So, I'm not alone, now I'm sure my critics will jump all over that this is a Jehovah's Witness site, but hey, they expected me to go read an anti Mormon site, right? so fair is fair, go read it and deal with it as an argument, not as a "non-christian" site.

Ahhh - Payback

You might also enjoy this: The Apologists Bible Commentary

Godzilla, note that to me "one God" does not denote a singular being, "God" does not denote to me a singular being.

Lets take the word "Clergy" Clergy is generally considered to be a plural word, we speak of the clergy of the church, and mean everyone, I have also heard it used to mean the local pastor, singular. Chinese has words that mean one or more, so does English. I could talk to you, meaning one or more people. I could "get some wood" and come back with one piece. I could have experience which means I have done something at least once before.

God means one or more members of the Godhead. It really does not matter, they are all "one"...

It's a concept that cannot be forced upon you, and apparently, you don't want to get it...
As for your comment on standards, I thought the RM said not to talk about that anymore. I do note that you'd rather talk about that, or anything else for that matter, than the reality of the Bible's support (or lack thereof) for the Trinity.

do you know what word culminate means?

Delph You can't have it both ways, either we believe in being saved by works (your assertion in earlier posts) or we believe all men are saved regardless. You can't say we believe both. (In fact we believe neither, but that's not my problem, I know what I believe you seem to be guessing.)

GZ It is not my fault that mormon doctrine is schizophrenic when it come to the use of the word “salvation”.

We are not confused, obviously if you don't understand it well enough not to be confused by it, you should be reading, not writing, but so far it seems you think you are an expert in everything. (Ancient metal working, Greek, Latin, archeology, Geology, genetics, map making... just a few things you have tried to "educate" me on that turned out badly in the past.)

GZ A general salvation to all, courtesy of the atonement, just meaning everyone will get a body at the resurrection.

OK, let's see what the bible says: 1 Corinthians 15:20-22

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It's a simile, I know you have a problem with those, so let me translate for you.

Adam brought death into the world, so a man, Jesus Christ, brought resurrection into the world. There is no condition listed here, all will be resurrected. Don't believe me, fine, we'll argue about it after we're both resurrected. If one of us in not there to argue, I'll concede your point immediately.

GZ The more specific use is individual salvation commonly associated with exultation.

There is a reason we have different words for Resurrection, and salvation... ever wonder why?

GZ While exultation is made possible by the necessary merits of Christ and blessings of his atonement, it is all based upon your works.

Read the Bible much? Revelations 20:12-13

Please explain to me just exactly what is meant by that scripture in the Bible, since you say the Bible is inerrant, and complete, I expect nothing but Bible references, good luck, you'll need it not to agree with us, and not to contradict those verses (which would make one of them an error).

Delph So, it is your contention that Paul does not think we need to keep the commandments he is giving us? BwaHAhaHA!

GZ My contention is that Paul clearly taught that commandments/works were not necessary to qualify or make oneself ‘worthy’ for salvation.

Please cite your reference for where Paul "Clearly Taught" (You can't interpret unclear scriptures, it has to say it) that the commandments did not need to be kept to be saved. (Crickets)

Easy DU, you will end up confusing yourself again.

Your projecting... For individual salvation, Paul taught that salvation was by grace (UNMERITED favor) through faith and not of works.

See my challenge above, I believe you need Faith and Grace, shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works Please show where Paul says you don't need works to be judged by. (Remember revelations above and don't contradict it!)

Paul also taught that ‘works’ would be the result of the changed life of the believer and a work of God in that life as well.

So, let me unwind your spin here. Grace is all that's needed. Grace comes from Faith. Faith results in Works. You don't need "works" to be saved, even though the Bible says you will be judged by your works, got it.

For mormonism I’m just stating what your doctrine states – salvation MAY be possible only by following the laws and ordinances (works) – your AOF 3, supported by the teachings of your prophets (already cited) and your bom.

LOL! thanks, but you're having enough trouble with the Bible, leave the interpretation of our doctrine to those of us who study it more. First you need faith in Jesus, then the work of Baptism should follow, then comes the Gift of the Holy Ghost. More study of the Gospel, increasing in faith, which is followed by works, then as you keep the laws you learn, you are justified by Jesus, and when you die, being on "the right track" (since perfection in this life is impossible for you) that's all you can do, Jesus applies Grace and you are saved.

One of the things you leave out of your equation is that Mormons only believe you are responsible to obey the laws you know.

"Orthodox Christianity" damns innocent babies who die unbaptized to hell and rewards degenerate murderers with salvation because they received the last rites.

This is not justice. This is not Jesus' plan.

Delph You said we believed only in salvation for the righteous, I agreed, and so would Paul.

GZ Lurkers it would be interesting to see if DU can find an actual reference that quotes Paul saying that one must become righteous BEFORE qualifying for salvation. Were Du to actually study the matter, he would find that righteousness is automatically imputed by God to the individual at the same time the person is saved (see above), ie righteousness FOLLOWS salvation – not as a precursor as is demanded in mormonism.

Romans 2:1-6

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Therefore thou art inexcusable O Godzilla whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Applies rather nicely doesn't it, oh don't forget this part "Who will render to Godzilla according to his deeds"

Are you comfortable with that? I am when I put my name in there. You see Paul did believe in judging by deeds or Works as it is rendered elsewhere.

Do you ever tire of being wrong about the Bible? Just curious.

Speaking of Satan Godzilla said: Yet you celebrate his deception in the garden in your temple ceremonies.

So, you think Satan should be stricken from all religions exposition? How then are the next generation to know and avoid him? We do not celebrate Satan in the Temple ceremonies, he is a historical figure, part of the story of Adam and Eve, indeed, he tells everyone there that if they do not keep the commandments of God they will be in his power.

Hardly a celebration...

you accuse me of intellectually dishonest, actual dishonesty, I'm just glad you didn't get around to marital dishonesty, or my wife might start posting and then you'd be in for it!!!

I'm not even going to bother with your intellectually dishonest accusations that I am intellectually dishonest.

LOL, Lurkers will notice the continued squirming on this point. Instead of showing that the material on the non mormon site was incorrect or distorted (hard to distort a scanned copy of the pages from the actual book), just more attempts to poison the well.

Not going to even look, the JOD online link has been sent to you several times, there must be a reason you don't want to go to an authoritative source, as for poisoning the well, it's an anti Mormon site! We are discussing Mormon beliefs there is no need to poison the well of objectivity there, the dead bodies floating in the water will do nicely.

Delph snippet: or, in this case, and abundance of people quoting the same scriptures...

GZ And come to the same conclusion

I don't care how many people you have saying the earth is flat, that just won't make it so. the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not up for a vote, or he'd have lost the last time he was here! (the Sanhedrin were unanimous after all.)

then you launch in your polytheist name calling again...
<SNIP>
Waist of time, it's been covered... a lot.

Atonement -- Yep, reconciliation with God, so? I know you think this is big, but I knew that atonement was based on reconciling with God, apparently, you see a problem I don't, maybe it's your interpretation stuff getting in your way again.

Godhead and Atonement, in the Bible, Trinity and saved by grace alone no works needed, not in the Bible.

Lurkers may wonder – why didn’t DU present the mormon definition instead of a dictionary reference? Perchance because the mormon definition is what I’ve been stating all along.

Because I've been scolded before for going to our definitions for things (in fact, didn't you just do that a minute ago in your post? I cut that part out because it was boring, but anyone who cares can go back and look.)

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES
God, Godhead

There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. We believe in each of them (A of F 1: 1). From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, without flesh and bone (D&C 130: 22-23). These three persons are one in perfect unity and harmony of purpose and doctrine (John 17: 21-23; 2 Ne. 31: 21; 3 Ne. 11: 27, 36).

Really good stuff there, anyone who is actually interested, go red it, it's way clearer than what Godzilla's been saying and the links are live from it too.

Godzilla complained that I had responded too fast to have read the sites I reminded him that I can speed read.

Speed reader perhaps, speed comprehension dubious.

Actually, you don't know that speed reading actually increases comprehension, I have been tested and have a measured comprehension rate of 98%@ 1500 WPM on new material that I have not read before.IIRC, one of my tests was on bees, the proper care, and harvesting of beehives and honey, extraction from a honey comb using a centrifuge, and the temperature at which honey would flow and the wax not melt was above 70 F and below 80 F (you could go to 90 if you were not centrifuging it)

Fascinating book, read it in just a few minutes, have never looked at honey in quite the same way ever since. I was in the fourth grade.

Further questions About speed reading?

Lurkers will note the failed nature of this statement. One site I recommended had about 700 scripture citations.

Bee honest, many of the citations were repeats...

Another that DU couldnt bother himself to study has extensive sections responding to pushbacks by readers in addition to addressing competing interpretations in great detail. Being a speed reader is no good if you fail to READ the contents of the materials presented.

A novel you can speed read, a well written book you can speed read, comments broken up by web markups and pictures, not so much. I never said it was a panacea. You never said to read all the comments, you said to read the articles, I did.

What kind of degree did you receive for the few weeks you attended the monastery DU you never really answered that question was it something beyond a certificate of attendance?

I have a certificate of graduation, and a wallet card that identifies me as a Buddhist seminary graduate. they would be recognized by other monasteries in Taiwan, and that's about it. Both had his Chop stamped over his signature, and make great souvenirs.

Lurkers will note just from the above comparison of what DU passes off for a definition of the mormon godhead, and what Ive been presenting on the same pretty well says it all. Lurkers will also remember that DU also protested not too long ago that the King Follett sermon was not taught by the church, until confronted with it in Gospel Principles. In fact, I have yet to see any real mormon doctrine presented to support HIS view of mormon doctrine. Oh well.

See, GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES
God, Godhead higher up.

Lurkers will note, DU leaves out the part to pray with a sincere heart with real intent for God to testify of Jesus and ask God to reveal the Truth of the Trinity. Lurkers would also note that DU’s FIRST response (before the zot) came less than a DAY after my post and DU has admitted to NOT studying the materials on those sites. Honest study or blowing it off?

I did not blow it off, I had already prayed about this as a youth, I have an answer. Did you not understand that? Maybe you should learn to read faster.

Right, only ‘authorized’ sources huh du – don’t want to have to go to those anti sites and confess you’ve been there to your bishop during TR renewal eh?

I have have been saying Authoritative, not authorized... as for my TR interview, just had one, it'll be awhile and they already know I do apologetic work on line... not a problem with my Bishop, it's a problem with me, I don't want to waste time there.

The only ‘testimony’ relates to the so-called ‘truth’ of mormonism. No evidence to date has been presented that you have sincerely and earnestly prayed about anything else.

I really don't care if you find "evidence", you are not my judge. but JFTR, I pray about "everything" I can think of to pray about, and that includes the Trinity, did that as a youth. Not good enough for you , tough.

Du completes his bleat with his canned advertisement for mormonism. Would you want to follow a religion where its members cannot even provide their doctrine of the ‘godhead’, but rely rather on a dictionary?

You didn't like my personal defintion, remember?

And for an apology that relies on a dictionary for its theology – the same rejects the dictionary definition of polytheism

It's the definition of one God, that we disagree on. and there is a bid difference between believing that more than one god exist and worshiping more than one God. The Bible itself speaks of other Gods and I explained that IMHO, Football, or a sports star, or money could be considered some people's Gods. Do you believe in money?

when both articles of the definition find agreement with the doctrine and teachings of the same religion. Would you want to follow a religion that has such shallow scholarship that it cannot even evaluate the ‘correct’ translation of a passage – relying only upon apostates who translated the KJV, using even BASIC tools?

You mean like all the protestant religions out there? They use the KJV, and they split off from the Catholic Church because it was considered apostate by them...

Do you really want to follow a religion where you have to prequalify for worthiness before receiving God’s grace and salvation?

Prequalify for worthiness? ROTFLOL!

God's grace is available to all everywhere, it's like prayer, you can't restrict it, so I have no idea what you are saying here.

Or would you rather follow Jesus Christ of the Bible (and not of joseph smith)

If you are insinuating the we worship Joseph smith then I have to say in the strongest terms allowed by this site that you are misrepresenting, misstating, misleading and all around not being honest about the true state of affairs.

True God, who became a man to reconcile man to himself out of his abundant love and grace (unmerited favor) to those who believe by faith alone, and who at that very same moment makes us righteous before God.

So unmerited, meaning no faith or works needed? or just faith (in spite of the fact that the Bible says you need both)

No secret temple ceremonies, no special underwear, no oppressive rules, regulations, laws and ordinances - just grace and grace alone.

No further light an knowledge, special clothing, you mean like a ya-mica, or prayer shawl, or the collar the priests wear, or the habit a nun wears?

No rules! Yes, salvation for everybody! hey steal! Lie! cheat! kill! It's all good just say you believe once, and then go about your life, God doesn't care, you said the magic words, you don't need to change the commandments are there for people who need that kind of stuff, but you don't actually have to OBEY them! LOL salvation is free!!!!!!

Godzilla, you've out done your self, and that's saying something.

So Grace is all you need, lurkers, if you believe that, then whatever you do, don't click HERE.

Delph

[DelphiUser]

Thanks! It's tough trying to keep up with the stuff... time... you know.

Delph

[MHGinTN]

Delph at FR on a Mormonism thread. Wheeeeeee

[ejonesie22]

Like I said, funny stuff.

[1010RD]

Excellent good and you’re welcome. Pass it along. It’s a real eyeopener.

Just when you think you know it all...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Flat-beaked Mormonic Fledgling placemarker

[Colofornian]

I'd like to see that on their commercials - "Hi, I'm Molly Mormon and I worship three gods and believe that bazillions or other gods also exist"

Well, if Molly Mormon was truly forthright (which MOST Mormons aren't on subjects like this -- they obfuscate), the commercial would include:

"Hi, I'm Molly Mormon and I worship three gods...
...and I occasionally worship my Mom-God whenever I sing Eliza Snow's hymn, and occasionally worship Joseph Smith, too, when I sing the hymn, 'Praise to the Man'...
...and I believe that bazillions or other gods also exist"

Of course, that all leads to some million/billion $ Qs for Mrs. Molly Mormon and Mr. Jeckyl Mormon...a series of Q's like...

Q1

If...
...All these other gods are true gods...
...Then why are they not worthy of your worship?

I mean, if you met one of them face-to-face, would they not be worthy of your submission?

Q2

Didn't the Mormon god worship one or more of these gods?

So if the Mormon god knew they (he) were worthy of worship, on what grounds do Mormons dishonor these other gods by not including them in their worship?

Q3

Did the "worship license" of these other gods who have been worshiped expire somehow?
If "no such expiration" -- and if the Mormon god still worships Him or them -- why is he/them worthy to be worshiped by the Mormon god -- but not by anybody else we know?
If "yes," the Mormon god no longer worships him, what kind of a "quality god" is that? ("Oh, I'm worthy to be worshiped now...but not eventually.")

[Paragon Defender]

Seekers of truth,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.

They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.  

They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.

Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.

You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.

Sometimes they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.

After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.

The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, then quote and straw man attack that. Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you, the seeker of truth out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think.

Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Now you will likely notice the "you never address our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.

Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you?

Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.

I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"If... ...All these other gods are true gods... ...Then why are they not worthy of your worship?"

WHY DO MORMONS HAVE GODS UNWORTHY OF WORSHIP?????????

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Dear Mormons who may be reading this thread,

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There’s a group of Christians who spend a great deal of time posting from Official Mormon Sources - both the Book of Mormon as well as Mormon Prophets and Church materials.

You will also notice that many of these Christians are former Mormons who have left Mormonism and come to know the real Jesus Christ and His Gospel of Grace.

They have a passion to reach other Mormons to share what they learned about Salvation by grace and apart from human works.

Of course, they are attacked regularly by a very small group of Mormons who have zeal, but no knowledge beyond what the Mormon Church has told them. They also continually have a difficult time identifying any:

… Facts
… Evidence
… Logical support - that any reasonable person could understand that would validate their Mormon claims.

Really, that leaves these so called “defenders” with nothing but some links to the same old, obfuscated-party-line-MORMON-talking-points. No real thinking.

Truth can withstand examination. Mormonism cannot.

Consistently, this small group of Mormon posters are forced to face that their faith is based on little more than feelings that cannot be verified.

People deserve more than feelings.

The best they have been able to do is construct ad hominem attacks against Christians, which is always a sign that they have no facts, evidence of logical arguments. You have certainly witnessed this here many times as you read these threads, so I am not telling you anything you haven’t seen with your own eyes.

After reading both sides on this thread and others, you may very well be wondering about what you were taught when you joined the LDS church.

You also may be wondering how to resolve the lack of facts, evidence and illogical nature of Mormon claims. Many have approached those of us who are Christians asking where to find out more and some, even, to ask how to leave the Church and learn more about Christ’s Gospel of Grace.

Here are a few links to get you started in your quest to know the Biblical Christ.

http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html
http://www.exmormonsforjesus.org/
http://4mormon.org/ex-mormon.php
http://www.exmormon.org/
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/

You should also feel comfortable private freepmailing any Christians on this thread to ask questions about the concerns you have. We always do our best to directly answer your questions with facts, evidence and logical support from the Bible.

best,
ampu

[MHGinTN]

Allow me to add a few quotes from Mormonism leadership, regarding the Mormon father god (they have so many don'tchaknow) and Mormon jesus, to shorten the lesson for those not looking to slog through the heresies of Mormonism at the Mormon approved sites:

Footnotes to Mormon meat (you don't get this until you've swilled the milky lies being offered here by Mormonism apologists):

"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, ... we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.132).

"Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith.... The matter that seems such a mystery is the statement that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man. This is one of the mysteries.... The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.10, 12).

In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)

“I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)

"Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee...We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed [children] before he was crucified (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 82).

"There was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that non less a person that Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha an the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it." (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 259).

"In the Church councils, it was spoken of: "Joseph F. Smith_ He spoke upon the marriage in Cana of Galilee. He thought Jesus was the bridegroom and Mary and Martha the brides."(Journal of Wilford Woodruff, July 22, 1883).
"The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons (Jedediah Grant, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 346)

"One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that great loved Jesus, such as Mary and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them and associated with the much; and when he arose from the dead, instead of first showing himself to his chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them--namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were his wives." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 159).

More to follow …

[Elsie]

 

Let's explore a few usages of "One" in the bible, shall we?

Before that can happen, we need to look at DOCTRINES OF DEMONS!

 

 

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
 14.  And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 15.  It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

 

 

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”  

 

Galatians 1:7-10
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

 

 

If one believes the Bible is correct, then, by that Standard, Mormonism fails the test.

 

 

If, however, you are convinced that the Bible is either in error, been corrupted or mis-interpreted, then you are free to believe whatever you wish.

 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

 

Rom 1:22 KJV - Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

 

More like:

2 Kings 17:41

 

Even while these people were worshiping the Lord, they were serving their idols.

To this day their children and grandchildren continue to do as their fathers did.

[Elsie]

 

See my challenge above...

 

 

Here's mine:

 

Pray about the below to see if GOD affirms it for you.

---

---

 

 

A FACSIMILE FROM
THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM
No. 1

 

EXPLANATION

Fig. 1. The Angel of the Lord.

Fig. 2. Abraham fastened upon an altar.

Fig. 3. The idolatrous priest of Elkenah attempting to offer up Abraham as a sacrifice.

Fig. 4. The altar for sacrifice by the idolatrous priests, standing before the gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and Pharaoh.

Fig. 5. The idolatrous god of Elkenah.

Fig. 6. The idolatrous god of Libnah.

Fig. 7. The idolatrous god of Mahmackrah.

Fig. 8. The idolatrous god of Korash.

Fig. 9. The idolatrous god of Pharaoh.

Fig. 10. Abraham in Egypt.

Fig. 11. Designed to represent the pillars of heaven, as understood by the Egyptians.

Fig. 12. Raukeeyang, signifying expanse, or the firmament over our heads; but in this case, in relation to this subject, the Egyptians meant it to signify Shaumau, to be high, or the heavens, answering to the Hebrew word, Shaumahyeem.

 

The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2010 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

[Elsie]

 

...and I occasionally worship my Mom-God whenever I sing Eliza Snow's hymn, and occasionally worship Joseph Smith, too, when I sing the hymn, 'Praise to the Man'...

 

 

 

Praise to the Man!

 

 

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

 

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

 

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again.

 

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

[Elsie]

 

 

HI!

 

 My screen name is Paragon Defender; but you can call me PD (if you are SINCERE, that is.)

 

I provide TRUTH to ALL who would care to seek it (if they are REALLY sincere) and I do it OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER  again.

I am pleased to offer my services for the Betterment of Mankind.

Please feel free to ask me ANYTHING and I'll sincerely post my link list again.

Remember...

I am normal too; and I am a MORMON!

 

Sincerely,

PD

 

 

[Colofornian]

Atonement -- Yep, reconciliation with God, so? I know you think this is big, but I knew that atonement was based on reconciling with God, apparently, you see a problem I don't, maybe it's your interpretation stuff getting in your way again.

You keep trying to move from funny to hilarious DU.

From my angle what's the "so" of "Yep, reconciliation with God" re: the atonement?

Who gets to be reconciled FOREVER with Heavenly Father per Mormonism, DU?

Do you or any Mormon ever stop to ponder that for a second?

Is it all the people that Mormons say the atonement is applied to?

(You can answer "yes")
(You can answer "no")
(Or you can answer "I Don't know")

I doubt you'd answer the last one...
And if you know Mormon theology, you KNOW that Mormons DON'T say that just about ALL of those eligible to receive the application of the atonement to their lives will live with Heavenly Father forever.

Eternal reconciliation, per Mormonism...
...Excludes...
ALL single people who've never been married...
ALL married people never married for eternity (like in a Mormon temple)
ALL married AND single Mormons who aren't temple Mormons...
ALL married temple Mormons whose spouse isn't in good standing with the church...
AND then even among some married for eternity temple Mormons, many of them lack the perfection or lack having done ALL they could do...

Pretty slim pickings of what's left in the world, eh, DU?

I know you think this is big, but I knew that atonement was based on reconciling with God, apparently, you see a problem I don't...

Yeah, DU. I see a HUGE, HUGE Mormon problem here..
IF a Mormon acknowledges, that is, that atonement is the announcement of Heavenly Father's reconciliation with His people...
Because if you claim there's some earthly reconciliation...
Well for the Mormon believing his leaders' own theology...
That's where that "reconciled" relationship stays for up to 99.9% or more of all people who have lived, are living, or likely will have ever lived!!!

Go on. I encourage you to say it, DU: Tell us who exactly are the eternal beneficiaries of this so-called "reconciliation," DU.

[T Minus Four]

MRM is a hate site pure and simple. opposing views not welcome.

Free Republic does not welcome views opposed to conservatism. For instance, vocal supporters of Romney, the abortion-mongering Rino sell-out. Are you saying Free Republic is a hate site, "pure and simple"?

< /tattletale >