Art Vanick on Glenn Beck and Mormonism

Out of Mormonism ^

[Godzilla]

It boils down to this, Mormons Christians believe in the Deification of man Trinity. There is support for the Deification of man Trinity in the Bible, so it can legitimately be held and still be a Biblical Christian belief.

If it weren't for double standards, morg apologists would have no standards at all.

[Godzilla]

Mormons will not worship anyone who is not in the Godhead.

Now this is a new twist - thought mormons only 'worshipped' heavenly father as God. Guess you'd better dust off that definition of polytheism again, since you are acknowledging the worship of more than one god in addition to acknowledging that there are countless other gods.

[ejonesie22]

I’m starting to loose track of all the twists...

Maybe I am slowly becoming Mormon...

[Godzilla]

Mormons will not worship anyone who is not in the Godhead. Our fellow parishioners will never be worshiped by us.

Jesus is supposed to be a spirit brother, no different from your fellow parishioners. Yet you now claim to worship him.

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a God, and also upon Brigham Young, our Governor” Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 89

Looking upon smith as a 'god', hmmmmm, one of the origional 12 apostles and first councilor to young. I suspect he may have a great deal more insight than DU on this smith worship.

[Elsie]

All the FLDS I know do NOT want to be called Mormon, so this postulate of yours dies a quick and well deserved death.

Bad logic AGAIN?

It matters NOT what THEY 'want', but that the HYPOCRITES in SLC have sent out PRESS RELEASES to assure!

[Godzilla]

more likely the mormon is losing track of the twists for lack of a true foundation.

[ejonesie22]

See, I may have the makings of a Morg Apologist...

Of course if I will just stick to Truth, things are much easier. It doesn't change based on whims or expediency.

[ejonesie22]

Actually did we not have a recent article that stated that the FLDS want to be know as Mormons?

[Elsie]

The BIBLE says, quite clearly, that the 'vision' JS experienced was identical to the description of Angels of Light to the vision of Stephen as he was being martyred...

 

^{Uh... not quite:}

 ^{Acts 7:54-56}

 

⁵⁴When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. ⁵⁵But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ⁵⁶"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

 

 

Joseph Smith was full of something; but it was not the Holy Spirit.

 

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http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

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2 Corinthians 11:13-15
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

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Ephesians 2:1 

 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

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[Elsie]

 

AGAIN, as I have now pointed out 3 times in this thread,

I have never said your fellow Mormons of this world will worship you once you exalt.

 

 

" The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success

unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly -

- it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."

[ejonesie22]

We seem to find ourselves repeating about their repetition...

It really is rather obvious, and I guess it works on the weak, the target LDS market.

[Elsie]

Maybe I am slowly becoming Mormon...

[DelphiUser]

that depends on mow many is many, I have asked them to look at some of the post here and defend themselves, but they think as a) believers of Joseph smith, and B) polygamists who are not accepted by the Mormons, they will basically be popping up in the middle of a battlefield and saying, OK both sides are wrong... I had to agree with their logic.

Delph

[colorcountry]

My link proves that there is a concerted effort among disparate groups of Mormon Fundamentalists to declare their Mormonism.

I hope you quit claiming that they don’t want to be known as “Mormon,” now that it has been proven that they indeed do want the Mormon label.

I wish the LDS Church would quit claiming their own ownership of the “Mormon” identifier, even as they themselves try to demand recognition as “Christian.”

I almost expect the LDS Inc. to try and copyright the title “Mormon” then try to sue those interlopers into submission. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least!

[DelphiUser]

That is one of you weaker non answers

Non questions deserve non answers.

For example you say other dimension. Well ok, but as we see from my several citations your own leadership has never mentioned other dimensions.

The scientific term dimension has not been around all that long, but describing the spirit world a having more pure or refined matter that cannot be seen with mortal eyes and occupies the same space as earth, well if that's not an 1830's description of a dimension, then nothing is.

And even if it is another dimension, whether you interact with these new or other gods or not, whether you effect each other or not, they are still there, they still exist, and you believe that they do because your doctrine tells you they must otherwise why mention it to the faithful at all.

Why indeed? Why mention something that is not a part of the mainstream of the church, that is just an aside, oh wait, you brought this up. Why?

So it still begs the responded to but still unanswered question. What of the other half of the definition of Polytheism?

A) I don't think this vague question is begging to be answered.
B) the Bible talks of other Gods (Baal anyone?) does that make it polytheistic? IMHO you are taking this way to far, just like the pharisees and the Sadducees.

I have ears to hear, just have not had it said yet to hear it...

Matthew 13:13-15

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Delph

[DelphiUser]

So please stop putting words that I have not said in my mouth to try and score some sort of point. You are better than that.

Sorry, not a coffee drinker (but you knew that) that was one of my takeaways from your posts was that you were saying we would worship each other (which is just a weird idea...)

So, (Not trying to put words in your mouth, but trying to guess what your questions actually is at this point...) You are saying that if we believe other God's exist, but don't worship them, that makes us polytheistic. Right?

As I have posted many times on this set of back and forth, the Bible talks of other gods (small g), and therefore according to you it is polytheistic...

Lets get right to the heart, and leave Moloch et al. out of it.

John 10:34

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

I am gonna Go with Jesus on this one... and every one.

You want to call us polytheistic for following the Bible, fine, just don't say you are following the Bible, or are monotheistic because the two just don't fit.

Antis often want to have it both ways, A) call us on something that's in the bible that we are doing, B) Say we are not Christian for following the Bible.

The logical conundrums are stunning (my beeber is stunned).

Delph

[Godzilla]

John 10:34

Wow, a two-fer.

"In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, page 501).

Talmage understood - but that doesn't matter for an ardent morg apologist trying to obfuscate the issue by putting words into Jesus' mouth.

The Bible is completely monotheistic - the same cannot be said of mormonism.

[DelphiUser]

It boils down to this, Mormons believe in the Deification of man. There is support for the Deification of man in the Bible, so it can legitimately be held and still be a Biblical Christian belief.

Where is the proof "from the Bible"? Link? How can it be twisted to agree with mormon doctrine?

First of all, it's not being twisted, you just study a subset of the scriptures that don't emphasize it.

See Romans 8:16-17 for an example

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

So, if we are children of God, spirit children of course, but heirs, and if we follow Jesus, God the Father's only begotten son, and he is inheriting all that God has, and we can become Joint-heirs with him, didn't we just become gods?

Hey, it's in the bible, and I'm not twisting, it's right there.

Consider this scriptiure: John 10:34

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

again, no twisting, Jesus is quoting scripture to the pharisees trying to explain to them that they can become gods, they try to stone him for it. Again, no twisting, it's right there, in the Bible. Men can become gods, it's also very logical, if we are Gods children, then why would we grow up to be like anything but our parents?

Show me one type in this world where children grow up to be a different species than there parents, just one. You can't

One last thing, it's not the Bible that is agreeing with Mormon Doctrine, it's Mormon Doctrine that is agreeing with the Bible, the LDS church was created (and the Gospel restored) in the 1830s, the Bible way predates that.

You know what I love about being a Mormon?

Unless you are looking at things twisted, the whole church makes sense, science meshes with gospel, which meshes with the best of philosophy, and when ever something doesn't fit, if you wait, we'll get what science had wrong right and it'll fit.

God bless you all, but I have to get back to work now... Post more later tonight, I hope...

Delph

[DelphiUser]

Oh, i just had to answer this one!

It boils down to this, Mormons Christians believe in the Deification of man Trinity. There is support for the Deification of man Trinity in the Bible, so it can legitimately be held and still be a Biblical Christian belief.

If it weren't for double standards, morg apologists would have no standards at all.

I am not aware that I have ever said, nay that anyone from Joseph smith to the current prophet Thomas S Monson, has ever said that those who believe the trinity are not Christians, they have a corrupted DOGMA, yes, but they still believe in Jesus and call upon his name for salvation.

It's not a double standard, and I'd love to discuss on an equal footing without he petty digs and witty nonsense the actual history and origin of the trinity, and the Godhead, but on this forum that is nigh on impossible, so I posted a page. if anyone wants to actually learn, and not have a public display, FM me about stuff on my page, and we'll talk.

Delph

[DelphiUser]

Oh, i just had to answer this one!

It boils down to this, Mormons Christians believe in the Deification of man Trinity. There is support for the Deification of man Trinity in the Bible, so it can legitimately be held and still be a Biblical Christian belief.

If it weren't for double standards, morg apologists would have no standards at all.

I am not aware that I have ever said, nay that anyone from Joseph smith to the current prophet Thomas S Monson, has ever said that those who believe the trinity are not Christians, they have a corrupted DOGMA, yes, but they still believe in Jesus and call upon his name for salvation.

It's not a double standard, and I'd love to discuss on an equal footing without he petty digs and witty nonsense the actual history and origin of the trinity, and the Godhead, but on this forum that is nigh on impossible, so I posted a page. if anyone wants to actually learn, and not have a public display, FM me about stuff on my page, and we'll talk.

Delph

Oops, forgot the all...