Posted on 10/04/2010 12:57:36 PM PDT by Amerisrael
Art Vanick, co-author of The Spalding Enigma, Who Really Wrote The Book of Mormon, makes an appearance on Out of Mormonism to address the Glenn Beck Restoring Honor Rally.
Andy, Art, and Roger discuss the ramifications of the rally from a biblical Christian perspective.
Do Christians understand that Mormonism is different than biblical Christianity?
[ These are two separate "Out of Mormonism" radio podcasts from Mesa, Arizona. Very interesting.]
While Mormonism may not pose the violent / stealth and political threat that Islam does, from a spiritual standpoint, it is just as dangerous.
(Excerpt) Read more at outofmormonism.libsyn.com ...
Just for the record, SZonian is a former Mormon just recently freed from the LDS. Once he was allowed to work with these very materials that PD links to, materials that SZ had lived with and studied all his life, without the undue peer pressure and other influences he left the cult whilst still having a loving wife and other family members caught with in. I mention that least you fall for the "they are just Mormon haters" trap...
This is mainly due to the exposure of the tricks and fictions of the LDS right here on FreeRepublic.
As the LDS would say, I bear witness and this is my testimony...
Just for the record, SZonian is a former Mormon just recently freed from the LDS. Once he was allowed to work with these very materials that PD links to, materials that SZ had lived with and studied all his life, without the undue peer pressure and other influences he left the cult whilst still having a loving wife and other family members caught with in. I mention that least you fall for the "they are just Mormon haters" trap...
This is mainly due to the exposure of the tricks and fictions of the LDS right here on FreeRepublic.
As the LDS would say, I bear witness and this is my testimony...
That is like saying a rainy day is a choice...
A fact is fact and words cannot change that. The Answers are false, there is no agree or disagree to it, Truth is not built on compromise but on reality. We cannot agree to have a sunny day and stop the rain.
And you logic is faulty within your own post.
First you acknowledge we have received the answers and reject them, saying it is “our choice” THEN in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE say we are pretending the answers are not given.
This sort of disjointed logic is the hallmark of the LDS apologist and their methods, the only question I ever have is whether it is born from an intellectual deficiency in rational thought processes or if it is by design to maintain the smoke and mirrors confusion that is needed to in order for the LDS scheme to achieve at least some success...
The only accurate thing in your post is that you do indeed provide a means for the “passerby” to find the truth...
For that I am grateful.
THX1138
YRWLCM1138
Sigh...
“Undecided readers”, it appears that there is no answer or someone willing to answer my question(s).
Instead, I’m classified as an “attack squad” member who is not trustworthy.
You will have to decide for yourselves if the links provided by PD answer the questions I asked.
Although PD says to “read and talk to both sides”, you are sent down a myriad of rabbit trails by the mormon apologist vs. being able to read PD’s own “side”.
I find it curious that despite his proposition, in all this time, he has yet to provide “his side”.
Delph
pm
Good Q: Why does the Mormon godhood have two physical bodies?
First you acknowledge we have received the answers and reject them, saying it is “our choice” THEN in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE say we are pretending the answers are not given.
Exactly. Quite confused or dishonest you are eh?
A fact is fact and words cannot change that. The Answers are false, there is no agree or disagree to it, Truth is not built on compromise but on reality.
Facts are facts for sure. The answers are not false however unless you refer to your own interpretations.
I like this new “LDS apologist” reference you guys keep bringing up. A new tactic in the Anti-LDS attack squad arsenal. I have never seen anyone here say they were any such thing. It’s part of your own fantasy.
I find it curious that despite his proposition, in all this time, he has yet to provide “his side”.
False as usual. /sigh
Hey Z.
So the other parts of my comment are TRUE? Thanks for affirmation. As for posting links being evidence of "your side". Doesn't wash. You want people to "read and talk" to both sides. I offer both. I even linked to your official LdS site with the BoM. So I'm playing by your rules, yet I don't see you doing the same.
You're on one side aren't you? Why aren't you offering some "conversation" instead of your rote post which only offers rabbit trails?
I also note you are evading the "honest inquiry" question.
I don't tire of your childish/petulant games as easily as you may hope.
You see, as an ex-mo, I feel obligated to challenge your assertions about the religion that is mormonism.
I've lived it as a full on Melchizidek PH, temple attending, member. I continue to live it vicariously each day. I am fully aware of what a mormon goes through. I am fully aware of what mormonism teaches and what they believe.
So, your attempts to manipulate "undecided readers" notwithstanding, I'll be here to offer an insider's view.
The Mormon doctrine of eternal progression teaches that God the Father was once a man, who progressed to Godhood through obedience to certain laws and ordinances. Part of this obedience involved getting married to a woman ("The Heavenly Mother"), who gives birth to God’s spirit children, who are sent to earth to inhabit bodies of flesh and bone. These spirit children, if they are Mormons, remain obedient to the laws of the Mormon Church, and are married in the Mormon temple, have the potential to become gods themselves. They will produce spirit children and rule their own planet. This process is then repeated.
The logical implications of this are as follows:
--The present God the Father and Heavenly Mother would themselves have had a Heavenly Father and Mother in existence before them, and they a Heavenly Father and Mother before them, and so on and so fourth. Indeed, not only does this logically follow through in Mormon theology, but many LDS leaders have specifically taught that the present God and Father had a Father above Him, and He above Him, etc. 1
--God the Father would have had to worship and pray to His God and Father as we do to Him.
--If the present God and Father of this planet is worshipped and prayed to by His spirit children, and if Mormon males hope to become gods in the same way, their spirit children would likewise pray to and worship them!
[At this point it is worth bearing in mind that the Bible says nothing about an infinite number of god’s past and god’s to come. On the contrary, Isaiah 43:10 is very clear when God states: "Before me no God was formed and neither will there be one after me." There was no god before God and there will certainly be no gods after Him. He is "the God of gods" (Deut. 10:17; Ps. 136:2; Dan. 2:4, 11:36). That is to say, although there are certainly so called "gods" in existence (1 Cor. 8:5), they are not true God by nature (Gal. 4:8). There is only one true God (John 17:3). ]
--If temple marriage is essential to becoming a god, as Mormons claim, then God the Father would likewise have been required to be married in a temple. Of course, there is nothing at all about this in the Bible.
--Jesus would have to have been married in a temple, otherwise He could not have been exalted and become a god (Christians believe He was always God, and not a god, but The God.). There is nothing at all in the Bible about Jesus being married in a temple, or even married outside a temple. Indeed, the Biblical temples were not even used for temple marriage, but for purification rites, and animal sacrifices.
--Some LDS leaders have not only taught that Jesus was married, but that He was a polygamist! 2
--If families are to be sealed in the temple as a family unit, to be a "family forever", what if one of those family members does not remain obedient to the Mormon faith? How can they remain together as a family, if some members of that family are disobedient?
--Bill McKeever of Mormonism Researched Ministry makes an interesting observation about eternal families. He asks how it can be that a Mormon family can stay together forever in eternity if, for example, the children of that family go on to become gods themselves and rule their own planets? Those family members could not be together if they are each ruling their own planets.
Footnotes
1. "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, ... we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.132).
"Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith.... The matter that seems such a mystery is the statement that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man. This is one of the mysteries.... The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.10, 12).
2."Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee...We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed [children] before he was crucified (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 82).
"There was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that non less a person that Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha an the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it." (Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 259).
"In the Church councils, it was spoken of: "Joseph F. Smith_ He spoke upon the marriage in Cana of Galilee. He thought Jesus was the bridegroom and Mary and Martha the brides."(Journal of Wilford Woodruff, July 22, 1883).
"The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons (Jedediah Grant, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 346). "One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that great loved Jesus, such as Mary and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them and associated with the much; and when he arose from the dead, instead of first showing himself to his chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them--namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were his wives." (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 159).
what’s up sv?
Yes, that is what I taught, that is what my wife believes, that is what my son is being taught.
It’s also done as “If there is a Heavenly Father, then it only makes “sense” that there is a Heavenly Mother, right?” “You can’t have a Father without a Mother, it just doesn’t make sense.”
The godhood thing is another. The mormon god is an exalted being. A being who supposedly did the identical things mormons today do. In perpetuity/eternity.
The questions in mormonism are framed in such a way as to make you question your own decision or the result of your prayer.
What you posted, if presented to a knowledgeable mormon (by someone other than us anti’s), would more than likely be accepted as truth (if you omitted the “implications” that question that belief).
For an ex-mo such as myself or the others, we can see it for the truth that it is.
Your cutesy little word games are tiresome.
You have nothing but old and tired anti-Mormon propaganda.
The notion that you used to be LDS really carries no weight with me. You are far from the first to fall away from their faith whether it was the true Church or some other. Some people, such as yourself I suspect, just need something to complain about. Attacking the LDS Church, I suspect, simply gives you something to do whilst attempting to make yourself feel better about your choice. And you have your fun little club here to support you.
I am sure the fact that I used to be an anti-Mormon attack goon carries no weight with you either. Strange how we went such different directions. I guess we’ll call it even but I’ll welcome you back if you ever do make it.
Why don't you expound upon Mormonism's DOCTRINE of eternal progression as described in post #135 above. If you want to attack something, instead of attacking SZonian, why not tell us ignorant folk who have never been Momrons what is untruthful about the description in #135 above?
Well, you certainly being tried by fire today - Praise the Lord!! Way to go.
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