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To: blasater1960

“And there are hundreds of other passages that say the same thing. The LORD (YHvH), G-d is our salvation. No mediator required or ever mentioned for all that matter.”

What you say is partially true, and the New Testament attests that the faith of the Patriarchs was accounted to them as grace, whereby they received salvation. However, under the Covenant of Moses, faith was to be demonstrated by obedience to the Law. The Law, exemplified through the High Priest and the Temple rituals, served as a type of mediator between Israel and God. “For faith without works is dead”, one of our Apostles said, so if a Jew had faith, he would follow the Law, and if he did not follow the Law, he had not faith.

Now, in the Old Testament, God did promise a New Covenant to the people of Israel, which we believe has been established. If our belief is correct, the mediation of Christ begins with the inception of this New Covenant, which began at Christ’s death. It is no wonder, to a Christian then, that the Old Testament doesn’t speak of a personified mediator, since his role had not been revealed, and did not play the same role in that Covenant.


29 posted on 09/24/2010 11:28:43 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
the New Testament attests that the faith of the Patriarchs was accounted to them as grace, whereby they received salvation.

The new testament is wrong. Abram heard the LORD and obeyed him:

Gen 12: 4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

G-d then first tells Abram of the promise.

7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. 8And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

So, Abram heard the LORD then acted upon the words of the LORD by works! He built an altar and offered sacrifices! He traveled to Egypt and back and then:

Gen 13: 18Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.

A second altar unto the LORD and offered scrifices! It isnt until Genesis 15, when G-d repeats His promise to Abram that he states his belief in the promise and it is accounted to Abram as righteousness. CLEARLY, Abram had already believed in G-d and had performed many works including two sacrficial altars! The NT is just wrong.

the Covenant of Moses, faith was to be demonstrated by obedience to the Law.

But the obdedience is driven by love of G-d and His word. Our model is King David. Psalm 119, 176 verses (longest in the whole bible) of David extoling the virtues and love of the law. To Paul a curse, to David a delight! I'll take David over Paul any day of the week. Notice Davids confession of murder to nathan is forgiven on the spot. No blood sacrifice. In all of scripture, there is not one recorded event of someone sinning intentionally and offering an animal sacrifice for forgiveness! Not one.

through the High Priest and the Temple rituals, served as a type of mediator between Israel and God.

Not really, that is only a process prescribed by G-d only when there is a temple. G-d told the people there would be times when the people would not have a temple or preist or king.

Hosea 3:4For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

Therefore the people had always been able to obtain forgiveness DIRECTLY through G-d. Sacrifices are primarily for unintentional sin. Only about 6 intentional sins are covered by animal sacrifice. And blood sacrifice was not required. (Lev 5:11) They were based on a sliding scale of means, the last being flour. No blood, just flour.

The people of Nineveh (among many other examples) recieved atonement without sacrifice.

if a Jew had faith, he would follow the Law, and if he did not follow the Law, he had not faith.

Not exactly. Many people have faith in G-d but not follow the law. The Israelites had problems chasing after other gods (and had little or no faith) and during 2nd temple times, problems getting along with each other, showing love, mercy and justice to each other but they still had some faith in G-d, just not a strong active faith. But in all cases in all times, there has been a holy remnant.

Now, in the Old Testament, God did promise a New Covenant to the people of Israel, which we believe has been established. If our belief is correct, the mediation of Christ begins with the inception of this New Covenant, which began at Christ’s death.

This new covenant A) Has not occurred yet and B) Is to the house of Israel and Judah. Not the Gentiles, although they will be included in the end of days.

Jer 31:31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

When the new covenant comes, all will know G-d. That hasnt happened yet. Ezekiel says almost the same thing.

And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. Ezekiel 11:19-20

And Isaiah too:And many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths," for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Isaiah 2:3

Since, Jesus did not A) Become the King of Judah or Israel, B) Did not bring knowlege of G-d from the least to the greatest and C) rebuild the temple and retore sacrifices (Ezk 43/44) There is no New Covenant yet. This will occur in the Messianic era by the Jewish Messiah. Soon!

30 posted on 09/25/2010 2:15:17 PM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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