Three distinct personages but One in purpose. It is truly glorious.
Posted on 09/20/2010 4:23:53 PM PDT by Colofornian
“Your atonement and ‘grace’ only come into play in mormonism AFTER you have successfully stopped sinning permanently.”
We all fall short of the glory of God. Every Mormon; every human being. You have the wrong impression of Mormons.
placemarker ... watching an apologist do all that she can do to earn that ‘free gift’, sorry to say. And how will she ever figure it out that she is in a cult when she will not allow herself to see truth offered to her?
Very good SD - you are a sinner like the rest of the human race. What does your doctrine say?
ALMA 45:16: “…for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.”
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 82:7: “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”
ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.”
How are you saved SD -
D&C 18:46 "And after that you have received this, if you keep not my commandments you cannot be saved in the kingdom of my Father"
I don't see Jesus in this at all SD - just your own works. Oh wait, Jesus does come into play - Alma 11:17. Oh, mormon Jesus can't save you in your sins now can He.
So SD, how goes your effort to earn your salvation, have you done ALL that you can do. Your doctrine places you responsible for the removal of your own sins. What laws and ordinances must be obeyed for salvation (AoF 3) SD?
“So SD, how goes your effort to earn your salvation, have you done ALL that you can do. Your doctrine places you responsible for the removal of your own sins. “
I have said it before and I’ll say it again. When I used to be a baptist and pentecostal, I always had trouble with the “once saved always saved” doctrine. In other words, you say some words “confess” and VOILA you’re saved. I never believed it.
So . . . what you’re saying is that a person can just spout some words and then live like heck the rest of their lives and they are saved. No work; no responsibility; no problem.
Never believed it and when I took the lessons with the Elders, this made perfect sense and was a huge relief - that we need to keep the Commandments and live according to the Gospel.
It’s not that hard but apparently too hard for you.
Actually, the Pentecostals I hung with believed in a “Holiness” message, i.e., that people should strive to be holy and they were pretty legalistic about it and judgmental.
By the way, I was thinking about the Trinity. They used to tell me that it was like an egg - the shell, the white, and the yolk. It’s a mystery. So to Whom was Jesus praying to in the Garden? To Whom was he speaking with on the Cross as He was dying. Was Peter wrong in calling Jesus “The Christ, the Son of the Living God?”
Not that much of a mystery to me. I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen.
That is called faith SD, and in the instance you described, a lack thereof
So . . . what you’re saying is that a person can just spout some words and then live like heck the rest of their lives and they are saved. No work; no responsibility; no problem.
It is not just what "I" am saying SD - it is what the bible itself teaches.
Romans 10:9-11, 13: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. …For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Here is the are the no work clauses-
Isaiah 64:6: "For we are all as an unclean thing; and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rages (menstrual cloths)..."
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Romans 11:6: "And if by grace [unmerited favor or kindness], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified [declared righteous] by faith without the deeds of the law."
Never believed it and when I took the lessons with the Elders, this made perfect sense and was a huge relief - that we need to keep the Commandments and live according to the Gospel.
Again, lack of faith, and as evident from above, unbiblical. So how goes your efforts to earn your salvation.
Actually, the Pentecostals I hung with believed in a “Holiness” message, i.e., that people should strive to be holy and they were pretty legalistic about it and judgmental.
Perhaps, but coming from that background myself I understand the teaching underlying the 'holiness' thing. I also know that holiness follows AFTER salvation SD, and if you had paid close enough attention the one who makes us holy is Jesus - through His and the HS's efforts - not our own efforts.
Yet according to mormonism you are probably stuck in your sins still trying to work them out. Did you sit in your sacrament meeting today and renew your covenants to keep God’s commandments? Since you have to continually repent, doesn't that by mormon definitions make you a covenant breaker
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 58:43: “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.”
“Those who receive forgiveness and then repeat the sin are held accountable for their former sins.” —Gospel Principles, 1995ed., p. 253
After all, if you truly did repent the first time by forsaking your sins, you wouldn’t need to continually repent again and again, would you? So since in mormonism you can't be saved by grace, you must be saved by your works - which reminds me, you have to keep your husband really happy too, since it is HE who will call you through the veil, isn't it. And what did Satan say would happen if you failed to fully keep all of the commandments and obligations???
By the way, I was thinking about the Trinity. They used to tell me that it was like an egg - the shell, the white, and the yolk. It’s a mystery.
Man's mind is finite, attempting to describe the infinite. An egg is a terrible analogy.
So to Whom was Jesus praying to in the Garden? To Whom was he speaking with on the Cross as He was dying.
Again SD, you've been taught that the Trinity is a form of modalism - it isn't - do some research. Jesus (God the Son, Second Person) was speaking to God the Father (First Person), because Jesus the God/man left His glory in Heaven to take on the form of mortal man. Three Persons - one shared Divinity.
Was Peter wrong in calling Jesus “The Christ, the Son of the Living God?”
No more than Thomas calling Jesus my "Lord and my God" There is only One God (Isaiah 46:9) SD, not three as you describe.
"I am Jehovah, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God (Elohim)." Isaiah 45:5
"Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no other God (Elohim) besides Me, A righteous God (Elohim) and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
You are taught Jehovah = Jesus. Yet Jesus doesn't acknowledge heavenly father here does he. Jehovah/Jesus even claims to be Elohim. The bible is clear - there is only one God in all existance. Heavenly Father is God, Jesus is God and Holy Spirit is God Three Persons, one God.
So SD, how goes the effort to earn your salvation - already sinned since sacrament?
“it is what the bible itself teaches”
“If ye love me, keep my commandments. “
I don’t think Jesus would have said this if He didn’t mean it. If we love Him, we would not want to break His heart by thumbing our noses at the Commandments.
By the way, I have a Q for you: Do you also think all the Jews are going to hell? And the Catholics?
“Again SD, you’ve been taught that the Trinity is a form of modalism - it isn’t - do some research. “
The concept of the Trinity was concocted in about 300 AD by some men. Before that Believers believed in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
By the way, we Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament. Therefore, those who accept the Old Testament as God’s Word, believe in Jesus Christ. Oh, it is so wonderful.
I am so happy that I know the difference between Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ the Only-Begotten of the Father, and the Holy Ghost. Three distinct personages but One in purpose. It is truly glorious.
And what were those commandments SD -
John 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
What else did Jesus say about those seeking heaven via the following of laws and commandments -
Matthew 5:2 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven"
So how goes your works of righteousness SD - do they meet this standard? If you think so, read Isa 64:6 where God likens man's works of righteousness as menstrual cloths. Where in the bible does Jesus command you to participate in temple ordinances SD? Where in the bible does Jesus tell you to obey the WoW?
By the way, I have a Q for you: Do you also think all the Jews are going to hell? And the Catholics?
No to both - only those who have rejected the free gift of grace and rejected Jesus as Lord will end up there.
Believe it or not SD, the word "trinity" was already in use nearly 150 years before Nicea (by 180 AD). Facts that they won't tell you SD are summarized in the biblical fact that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10-11; 44:6,8; 45:21-23; 46:9), and yet the Father is called “God” at 1 Peter 1:2, the Son is called “God” at John 20:28, and the Holy Spirit is called “God” at Acts 5:3-4. The Scriptures also reveal that each member of the Trinity has the attributes of Deity and performs activities that only God can perform.
By the way, we Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament. Therefore, those who accept the Old Testament as God’s Word, believe in Jesus Christ. Oh, it is so wonderful.
Is it SD. Why haven't you responded to Jehovah/Jesus' distinct disavowal of the existance of heavenly father in the OT? This same 'Jesus' mormons teach as being your spiritual brother in the OT is described as your CREATOR -
Isa 51:13 KJV - And forgettest the LORD (Jehovah) thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; . . . .
Isa 64:8 KJV - But now, O LORD (Jehovah), thou [art] our father; we [are] the clay, and thou our potter; and we all [are] the work of thy hand.
And yet this same Jehovah speaking in the prophetic passage about Jesus says
Isa 53:10 KJV - Yet it pleased the LORD (Jehovah) to bruise him (Jesus); he hath put [him](Jesus) to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD (Jehovah) shall prosper in his (Jesus) hand.
Why do you kick against the OT testimony of Jesus SD?
I am so happy that I know the difference between Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ the Only-Begotten of the Father, and the Holy Ghost. Three distinct personages but One in purpose. It is truly glorious.
Not glorious SD - pagan - it is more appropriately called polytheism and is akin to the myths of the Greeks and romans with their pantheon of gods, and not the God of the Bible.
Who was heavenly father's father and savior SD?
As a mormon, to be forgiven of a particular sin by the atonement, you must successfully stop that sin permanently. In order to be forgiven of all sin you must successfully stop all sin permanently. How goes your efforts to earn your salvation?
Three distinct personages but One in purpose. It is truly glorious.
“feelings vs. fact”
Your facts are different from my facts. My feelings are my own.
“the word ‘trinity’ was already in use nearly 150 years before Nicea”
The word trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible. It is a man-made concept. I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Ok, lets follow your logic -
the word "bible" does not appear in the Bible - it is a man made concept.
The phrase "First Presidency" does not appear in the bible - it is a man made concept
The word "telestial" does not appear in the bible - it is a man made concept.
The word 'adeau' does not appear in the Bible - it is a man made concept.
Show me where in the bible there are secret handshakes and names by which one needs to know to gain admittance into heaven.
And yet the bible does teach that there is only ONE God in all of existance. And the Father is that God, the Son is that God and the Holy Spirit is that God - One God, three Persons, united in being and purpose.
What you believe is called polytheism SD - are you proud to be a polytheist?
How well are you doing today earning your salvation SD? Failed to perfectly keep ALL of your commandments and covenants yet? Spencer W. Kimball wrote in a tract titled "Repentance Brings Forgiveness": "If the sinner neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, or fails in his prayers and other responsibilities, he is not completely repentant.". Are you still completely repentant SD? Remember, you only have this life to successfully repent, for there is no chance for you in the afterlife -
Alma 34:32-35 "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. ...I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."
So are you fully repentant SD - having completely removed sin from your life? If not, why not and if not - what grace is there for you, none from your doctrines
D&C 82:7 "Go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God."
D&C 18:46 "And after that you have received this, if you keep not my commandments you cannot be saved in the kingdom of my Father"
D&C 25:15 "Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."
What good is Jesus anyway to mormons SD -
D&C 76:52 “That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins...”
The blood of Jesus offers nothing to you. So how well are those bloody rags of your works doing towards earning your salvation SD?
Good words aruanan.
I guess you believe that Peter was a liar when he said: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”
There are many Scripture references to Jesus Christ being the Son of God.
We believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost - not in an egg that has a shell, the white, and a yolk.
Again, the Trinity is a man made concept.
How goes your efforts to earn your salvation today SD?
“Why are you so obsessed with disclaiming the Trinitarian reality “
The Trinitarian reality is YOUR reality, not mine. I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Since the Trinity is a man-made concept, it is not blasphemous for me to not believe in it. Again, I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Peter said of Jesus Christ: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” Did he lie?
We Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament and the Savior/Redeemer of the New Testament.
Jesus Christ is Head of the Church.
I never believed what was told me about the Trinity by Christian preachers - that it is a mystery - that it is like an egg, the shell, the white and the yolk. That is in fact insulting.
Again, I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
So . . . when Jesus was sweating Blood in the Garden, to Whom was he speaking? When Jesus went away alone to pray, to Whom was He praying? When Jesus was dying on the cross, to Whom was he crying out?
Jesus Christ said that no man could come to the Father except by Him. I believe that, don’t you?
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