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To: redgolum; maryz; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; MarkBsnr

Negative. Lutheranism professes irresistible grace and therefore does not teach or believe in synergism, be of the Arminian or Catholic/Orthodox variety. Lutherans share the same belief as the Calvinists that God predestines some people to hell.

The orthodox position of the Church is that, just as God does not predestine anyone to salvation, he does not predestine anyone to hell. The key to who goes where is the free will. Christ died for all men so that they may all be saved, for God desires that. Thus, God offers his grace to all. The reason some are not saved is that some refuse it freely; and some are saved because they accept it freely and follow God's lead. God does not force himself. Forced love is no love.

A good analogy would be to say that God offers everyone a ticket to board a train destined to heaven. Those who refuse and discard his ticket cannot board the train and will never get to heaven. Those who keep his ticked can. Lutheranism rejects this.

I know that you find a lot in common with the Catholic/Orthodox beliefs, but you are a member of a sect that broke away from the Church and embraced a different theology that is incompatible with the beliefs of the Church. Even Arminianism is not fully compatible with the beliefs of the Church. To pretend otherwise is simply not true. Lutheranism, as mainstream Anglicanism, may "look" Catholic on the surface, but they are not.

6,831 posted on 09/23/2010 2:11:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; redgolum; maryz; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr
The orthodox position of the Church is that, just as God does not predestine anyone to salvation, he does not predestine anyone to hell. The key to who goes where is the free will. Christ died for all men so that they may all be saved, for God desires that. Thus, God offers his grace to all. The reason some are not saved is that some refuse it freely; and some are saved because they accept it freely and follow God's lead. God does not force himself. Forced love is no love.

Good explanation.

From Blessed Saint John Chrysostom...

“it is neither the case that everything is due to help from on high (rather, we too must contribute something), nor on the other hand does He require everything of us, knowing as He does the extraordinary degree of our limitations; on the contrary, out of fidelity to His characteristic love and wishing to find some occasion for demonstrating His own generosity, He awaits the contribution of what we have to offer.”-Saint John Chrysostom-Ibid., 53.2 (PG 54 466; tr. Hill, vol. 3, 82-83).

6,840 posted on 09/23/2010 5:02:14 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: kosta50; maryz; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; MarkBsnr
Quick post.

Irresistible grace is not part of what any synod that I am familiar with teaches.

The 10,000 ft view of what I was taught, and what most synods that I know of teach, is that God makes the first move. We can not by our own reason or strength know or love God. The example that I was taught as a teenager was that a nomad living on the plains of what is now Russia in the year 40 AD would likely not have heard of Jesus. He would not, by his own reason, have a chance to know Him. Could that nomad have been saved? Well God can do what he wants, but if he was it was not the normal way.

How ever, we can reject God. As you said, forced love is not love it is rape (to be crude). Of those that I grew up with, even in my own family, some have rejected God. They did so by their own choice. Were they predestined to fall away and go to hell? No, that is not what the LCMS (or any) Lutheran Synod teaches. For one thing, double predestination was explicitly rejected. While there is life, there is hope. So to say that those who have (or appear to) fall away are damned is something we can't say. For we are not God, and exist in time while He does not.

And you are right in that we Lutherans do not view things the same as the Catholic, or the Orthodox. If we did, we would probably be in Communion with one or the other. But then again, there are differences between the two also.

6,851 posted on 09/23/2010 6:28:36 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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