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To: maryz; kosta50; D-fendr
First, I'm more confused about your understanding of will than I was before -- it sounds confused and self-contradictory.

This is my view on the will:

Before we became Christians we are slaves to sin. Our wills are bound to this slavery. When we have been set free from sin we become slaves to God. Our wills are bound to do the things that God wants us to do-not always perfect or all at once but always progressing.

There is no such thing as "free will" by which a man can make a choice of which one he wants. We are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.

...your understanding of the Church's teaching seems equally confused. I can only speak for the western Church, but in a nutshell: results of the Fall, in addition to "Sin and Death and Misery, Death's Harbinger," the powers of the soul, traditionally named as memory, intellect and will, were weakened -- not destroyed,

According to the above passage of scripture (and others) our will is not "weakened" but we have become slaves to it. If anyone would doubt this then simply try not to sin.

Third, perhaps you're not aware that Trent reiterated its condemnations of Pelagianism and and semi-Pelagianism

This is from Theopedia:

Now how does this differ from Catholic doctrine?

6,787 posted on 09/23/2010 3:08:49 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; D-fendr
Now how does this differ from Catholic doctrine?

Semi-Pelagianism claims that man can make the first move, under his own steam, so to speak.

Our wills are bound to do the things that God wants us to do-not always perfect or all at once but always progressing.
There is no such thing as "free will" by which a man can make a choice of which one he wants.

If our wills are bound to do the things God wants us to do," but it's not always perfect, what is the source of the imperfection?

And what of people who grew up Christian? Who never knew anything else?

I still maintain "slaves" is figurative.

6,790 posted on 09/23/2010 5:03:06 AM PDT by maryz
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To: HarleyD; maryz; D-fendr

Pelagianism and Semi-Pelaginaism state that man makes the first move (which in Pelagaionism is the only move and in Semi-Pelaginaism is followed by grace).

The problem with both is that in the former God does nothing, and in the latter God follows man!

The Church doctrine states: God calls and man either follows God or refuses.

Calvinism says God hijacks your soul and makes you a slave.

The reality on the ground shows that Calvinists are wrong or else they would all be walking on water...

6,804 posted on 09/23/2010 9:26:31 AM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: HarleyD; maryz; kosta50; D-fendr
Before we became Christians we are slaves to sin. Our wills are bound to this slavery.

Lets put this through the test....

A non Christian soldier in combat throws himself on a grenade to save a Christian soldier's life.

According to your theory the non Christian is a slave to sin,thus by jumping on the grenade he must have committed a sin since he is a slave and bound to sin.

The other explanation of this is since you deny free will is that God wanted to play army that day and planned to blow up the person destined for hell for his good pleasure

Strange belief system you have either way.

6,843 posted on 09/23/2010 5:38:47 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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