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To: RnMomof7; Kolokotronis; Legatus; kosta50; MarkBsnr

“”To pretend that God is not a God of Justice and wrath is a matter of scriptural ignorance””

True SCRIPTURAL wrath and justice is not how Calvin viewed it because God being love can never cease being love OR GOD WOULD BE CHANGED(”For I am the Lord, and I change not”-Malachi 3:6 and “1 John 4:8 “God is love”). The wrath is the person being tortured by God’s infinite love due to hatred of Love

Love is the utmost torture and wrath to grave sinners,those in hell and the devil

Kolokotronis posted this excellent post showing how the Church Fathers understood this...
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/by:kolokotronis/index?more=71407381

Here is what +Symeon the New Theologian says about the Final Judgment:

“In the future life the Christian is not examined if he has renounced the whole world for Christ’s love, or if he has distributed his riches to the poor or if he fasted or kept vigil or prayed, or if he wept and lamented for his sins, or if he has done any other good in this life, but he is examined attentively if he has any similitude with Christ, as a son does with his father.”

In all events, it is God’s Love, not an instrument or instruments of torture, which is the “end” of the Final Judgment.

“I say that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love’s power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it” +Isaac the Syrian (Homily 84)


6,523 posted on 09/20/2010 5:35:37 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi; RnMomof7; Kolokotronis; Legatus; MarkBsnr
Kolokotronis posted this excellent post showing how the Church Fathers understood this...

Worthy reminder of the early Church.

6,539 posted on 09/20/2010 8:16:23 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: stfassisi
True SCRIPTURAL wrath and justice is not how Calvin viewed it because God being love can never cease being love OR GOD WOULD BE CHANGED(”For I am the Lord, and I change not”-Malachi 3:6 and “1 John 4:8 “God is love”). The wrath is the person being tortured by God’s infinite love due to hatred of Love

Love is ONE of the attributes of God It was His love that sent Christ, but God has many attributes and among them them are justice and holiness. To deny the wrath of God is to have an idol God, one of one's own making

" "God’s attributes are balanced in His divine perfection. And they are perfectly balanced. If God did not have wrath and God did not have anger then He would not be God. God is perfect in love, on the one hand, and He is equally perfect in hate, on the other hand. Just as totally as He loves, so totally does He hate. As His love is unmixed, so is His hate unmixed. Of Christ, it says in Hebrews 1:9, “Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity.” And there is that perfect balance in the nature of God. As I mentioned, one of the tragedies of Christianity in our time is a failure to preach the hatred of God, the judgment of God. We’re so saccharine. We’re so sentimental. We’re so kind of mushy in our Christianity. When is the last time you heard a new song on the wrath of God? Heard one lately? I haven’t.....

The prophets spoke often of the wrath of God, the judgment of God. In Isaiah 9:19 it says: “Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened.”‑ And then this amazing statement: “And the people shall be as the fuel of the fire.”...

Now those are just a few passages. But the Bible is filled with statements about the wrath of God. You see His wrath exemplified in the Old Testament, against the old world when He brought the flood, against the people at the tower of Babel, against the Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain, against the Egyptians. On many occasions against the Israelites, against the enemies of Israel, you see His wrath poured out against Nadab and the others, against the spies, against Aaron and Miriam, against Abimelech, against the family of Saul, against Sennacherib, and it goes on and on.

You say ‑ Well, that’s the Old Testament. That’s right, but God doesn’t change, the same thing is true in the New Testament as well. You see the wrath of God. In John chapter 3, John ‑ that wonderful gospel written by a man of love, that gospel that presents the Lord Jesus Christ in all His wonder and majesty and beauty ‑ is yet a gospel that speaks of God’s wrath. John talks about it in several places, how that God’s wrath will be poured out but one particular one is at the end of the third chapter, the last verse: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.” It is not well with people who do not know Christ. It is not well with them. The wrath of God abides on them.

God is a God of wrath, people. He’s a God of anger. Now does that sound like a poor choice of starting points for the gospel? Think about it. The bad news has to come before the good news, doesn’t it? It’s kind of like going to the doctor...and having the doctor say to you ‑ I have bad news; you have a fatal illness that has killed many people. But, I have good news, a cure has been found and I have it right here. See the good news means nothing without the bad news. Right? You have to diagnose the disease before the cure means anything.

The bad news is ‑ God hates. The good news is ‑ God loves, but you have to start with His hate. First the diagnosis then the cure. Now look again at verse 18, it says: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven.” Why is that ‑ for ‑ there? What is that there for? Well, it connects us to the previous passage. The previous passage says ‑Justification is by faith alone. Why? Because the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. In other words, what that verse says is all men hold the truth unrighteously and are under the wrath of God. Therefore they have no capacity to justify themselves. So justification has to be by faith because all men, left to their own efforts, are under the wrath. Do you see? Justification is by faith, it has to be. It can’t be by works because by works all men are under wrath."

The wrath of God

6,558 posted on 09/21/2010 6:22:43 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.)
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