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To: kosta50; HarleyD; maryz; bkaycee
I am pulling my hairs trying to understand this

Me too. But I had a thought. There may be a way to get there.

I don't agree with it, but Harley is, I believe, going to at least be consistent and thoughtful. I think there has to be a way to get there based on some premise.

What if you assume there are only two kinds of humans, an on/off. The first I would call worse-than-sociopaths. Imagine your worst movie evil guy. That's the first type. The second type is what I would call your-average-human.

Now, if, in Calvinism this defined the double predestination and we call the first group Totally Depraved, the second Irresistible Grace; Reprobate and Elect.

Then, if you were your-average-human and you could even conceive of doing "good," you must be elect. IOW, if you're not a worse-than-sociopath (Dirty Harry's Punk), you're elect, and everything follows. You have "free will to choose God" because you're elect - you know right from wrong. It doesn't seem like there's anything to the choice - right is right, you can't imagine it really even being a choice. You still screw up, but the choice is obvious in the larger sense.

Now, the difference, IMHO, is I don't believe totally evil people exist, and even if they do, they are not deprived of grace or the opportunity to respond.

What is described as the elect, I see as everyman, knowing good from evil, capable in every moment of making the choice of self or good, his will or God's will (as Harley described himself doing) guided by God. In Calvinism she/he is already saved, assured of it because they know "good," therefore must be elect - the reprobate is incapable of even this, or at least not in his being.

In the Church, this knowing is written in our hearts, all hearts, and theosis, growing in moral discernment, the Sacramental Life, purgation, illumination, etc. are the real story of salvation. In Calvinism this is only details in the lives of the already heaven-bound elect.

Anyway, although I think both double predestination and this on/off division of humans is in error, it is a way I can start to understand how it can make sense, given these assumptions.

Since I have evidence that Harley is no fool and that he's worked out the details to his own satisfaction using Calvinism, this is how I make some sense of it.

Harley, of course, can then tell me just how off base I am with it.

6,337 posted on 09/20/2010 12:30:30 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; HarleyD; maryz; bkaycee
What if you assume there are only two kinds of humans, an on/off.

Why is then the "off" human being sent to hell and the "on" human (the one who is actually consciously sinning (!) is "saved"???

6,364 posted on 09/20/2010 8:02:02 AM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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