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To: bkaycee; HarleyD
So you do not see man inheriting a fallen nature from Adam?

Sick or wounded, not dead.

Man is neutral in your view and God owes him a chance?

If you love someone, would you give them a chance to get well, even if they didn't deserve it?

God chooses to save some and allow the rest to what they deserve.

The wounded deserve to die?

If you want pure justice then ALL deserve hell.

A just god would mean all go to hell or all go to heaven - this is the false choice a dilemma of double predestination. An injust god is not a satisfactory solution to it.

Neither is universal salvation. When you have formed a either/or for which both conclusion are wrong, it's a good indication that your formation is in error.

Sounds like you are a semi pelagian. Man has been wounded but with help can choose correctly.

Is believing a work?

Again, your theology presents a false choice. "Either All God or All Man" necessarily means that whichever way you choose, you eliminate the other. If you choose All God, you cannot hold Man accountable for anything - and you do not have Man but a programmed creature you mistakenly call man.

With free will you have relationship. You have the possibility of love. You have reality: God and Man and His love and grace and our response, choices and consequences.

5,876 posted on 09/17/2010 3:22:18 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
So you do not see man inheriting a fallen nature from Adam?

Sick or wounded, not dead.

So you would say that after the fall, man has a propensity to sin, but still retains a weakend ability to choose God?

AND you would say that these verses are an overstatement.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." 13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." 14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16in their paths are ruin and misery, 17and the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

5,932 posted on 09/18/2010 7:24:57 AM PDT by bkaycee
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To: D-fendr
Man is neutral in your view and God owes him a chance?

If you love someone, would you give them a chance to get well, even if they didn't deserve it?

Your view of GOD is to low and view of Man is to high.

Fallen, humanity is running away from God and God's enemy.

Rom 3:11 NO ONE understands; NO ONE SEEKS for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; NO ONE does good, not even one." The Gospel of Grace is to be proclaimed to the WHOLE world. God removes the blinders for the ELECT and GIVES them FAITH to BELIEVE. The rest of humanity is still culpable for their sin, brought upon them by Adams curse and their own sin.

God chooses to save some and allow the rest to what they deserve.

The wounded deserve to die?

They are not wounded. They are dead in trespasses and sin. We were God's enemies, running away from Him as fast as we could. God HAD to arrest us.

We ALL deserve eternal punishment, BUT GOD in His Mercy chooses to Save some.

Rom 9:14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

5,935 posted on 09/18/2010 8:19:53 AM PDT by bkaycee
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To: D-fendr
Sounds like you are a semi pelagian. Man has been wounded but with help can choose correctly.

Is believing a work?

Was it a work for Peter?

Matt 16:15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Again, your theology presents a false choice. "Either All God or All Man" necessarily means that whichever way you choose, you eliminate the other. If you choose All God, you cannot hold Man accountable for anything - and you do not have Man but a programmed creature you mistakenly call man.

Rom 9:14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.

With free will you have relationship. You have the possibility of love. You have reality: God and Man and His love and grace and our response, choices and consequences.

So Man determines who is redeemed, not God?

5,942 posted on 09/18/2010 9:01:10 AM PDT by bkaycee
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