[Mad Dawg]

I STILL think that’s far tooooo much of a S T R E T C H TO SOUND soooooooooo smug about it.

This is too miuch, First when someone gives evidence of disgracefully awful catechesis WHILE claming the authority of experience it is beneath me to address the argument and to point out that I who have received ZERO catechesis (auto-didact here) know more than she does.

And now you don't like my tone of voice when I type? YOU don't like the tone of MY voice?

If someone essentially says, You have to agree with me, I know what I'm talking about and then says a series of things that are grotesquely untrue, I don't see where my obligation extends beyond pointing out the errors. If she wants classes, let her ask for them.

BUT I DID point out the uniate churches. However, no one on your side remembers that. I don't know why it was forgotten, but remembering it would interfere with the current doctrine of my haughtiness.

I suspect that you are well aware of the popular understanding abroad in the world by most RC’s as well as other non-RC’s that marriage is BASICALLY NOT a normal option for RC priests.

Of course. But normal Catholics and non-Catholics do not tell other Catholics that they have to agree with them because they possess knowledge not only superior but unassailable.

[Legatus]

And now you don't like my tone of voice when I type? YOU don't like the tone of MY voice?

Today is the Exaltation of the Cross and my parish has a piece of the True Cross(tm) which I was privileged to reverence at Mass this evening. That has nothing to do with this, but on the way to Mass an event occurred which I begged God that I would have the opportunity to relate.

God provided.

Five children ages 4-10 in the back of the van. What follows is what I heard:

--------------------------------

You KICKED me!

CAR MAX!

Daddy

tell him to stop

McDonalds!

KICKING ME!

FAKE CHURCH!

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hmmmmmmmmmmmm

She brought TWO things

yeah well you brought your BEAR

with her in the car, I did NOT!

She did too, is grandma coming tonight

You know what I want for my birthday a small box we can teleport in.

dooobydooobydooo

Is this rush hour? It's taking LONGER than an hour.

Poor dog.

Is !!!EVERYONE!!! going to Mass?

STOPPPPPPPPPPP HUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMIINGG!

Why are all the Protestants on the road if they're not going to Mass?

Is that a turkey license plate?

Can we eat other food at dinner or just what we're bringing?

What's an apparent ice?

GET OFF THE ROAD HEATHENS!

We're never gonna get there.

I'm hungry

Everyone is from here or Ohio.

When's dinner are we eating in the Gym or the hall?

Ok, what's an apprentice?

Turn here, THIS is taking forever!

I wanted to eat in the hall

-------------------------------------

So yeah, half an hour of that and I turned to my wife and said "Shoot me now I'm driving the Freep religion forum to Mass."

[Quix]

LOVE IT.

BELLY LAUGHS.

MetMom's comments were GROTESQUELY UNTRUE???

REALLY?

Restraining myself reallllly hard here regarding definitions.

Finding how many out of what 100,000 [nope--bad guess on my part, out of 400,000] or what number of cases = grotesquely untrue???? . . .

OK, per the below, evidently 30% of 400,000 priests are married in the USA. THAT evidently equals "grotesquely untrue." That's tolerable given different sensibilities. I was thinking it was a few dozen or so.

MD:
This is too miuch, First when someone gives evidence of disgracefully awful catechesis WHILE claming the authority of experience it is beneath me to address the argument and to point out that I who have received ZERO catechesis (auto-didact here) know more than she does.

I read MetMom as an expert on HER CORNER OF ROMAN CATHOLOCISM. JUST AS RNMOMOF7 IS AN EXPERT ON HER CORNER OF CATHOLOCISM. JUST AS DR E IS AN EXPERT ON HER HUBBY'S CORNER OF CATHOLOCISM.

TO ME,

DENEGRATING, DISMISSING OUTRIGHT, DEMEANING, BELITTLING THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE OF THEIR CORNER OF RC-DOM IS GROTESQUE.

PERHAPS They have too justifiably little to say reasonably accurately about Roman Catholocism at large. I think that's arguable because there's such a huge consensus amongst such departed RC's as to what the ills of RC-dom are. However, for the moment, let's assume you are right.

YOU ARE NOT RIGHT ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE OF THEIR CORNER OF ROMAN CATHOLOCISM BEING GROSSLY INACCURATE. Insisting that their descriptions of their EXPERIENCE of Roman Catholicism is mostly inaccurate is, to me, disingenuous and grotesquely insulting.

From. . . .

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/catholic-priests.htm

-----------------------------------

Catholic Priests: Some Facts Related to the Roman Catholic Church

Catholic priests currently number over 400,000 worldwide. Of these, approximately 65% are considered diocesan priests (assigned to specific parishes within geographic regions) and 35% are considered religious priests (not necessarily assigned to a specific church community). It is now estimated that there are over 1 billion Roman Catholics in the world, representing over 17% of the global population. Although there is no church wide census, and there are various criteria for determining membership, scholars now estimate that Roman Catholics comprise nearly fifty percent of all "Christians" in the world. In 2001, there were approximately 63.7 million Roman Catholics in the United States.

-------------------------

from:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm

------------------------

What percentage of priests have a homosexual orientation?

Nobody knows, with any degree of accuracy.

Any discussion of the role of homosexual orientation in the priesthood -- in fact any discussion of clergy abuse itself -- is hampered by a lack of hard, reliable data.

Some estimates of the percentage of current priests with a homosexual orientation:

Analysis of the estimates of others:

	According to Amanda Ripley of Time Magazine, estimates range from 15% to 50%. 3
	According to Bill Blakemore of ABC News, "...nobody knows what percentage of the American priesthood is gay; estimates range from less than 10% to more than 30%." 4

Personal estimates:

	Richard Sipe, a psychotherapist and former priest, has studied celibacy, chastity, and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. He once estimated that 30% of the priesthood is homosexually oriented. 5 Elsewhere, he is quoted as estimating that between 25% and 45% of American priests are homosexual in orientation. 6 He told the Boston Globe: "If they were to eliminate all those who were homosexually oriented, the number would be so staggering that it would be like an atomic bomb; it would do the same damage to the church's operation...It would mean the resignation of at least a third of the bishops of the world. And it's very much against the tradition of the church; many saints had a gay orientation, and many popes had gay orientations. Discriminating against orientation is not going to solve the problem."
	Sister Maryanne Walsh, spokesperson for the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, said that it would it be difficult to find evidence to support these Sipe's estimates of the percentage of gay men in the priesthood. She feels that it is also irrelevant. She said: "There's no real purpose in saying whether someone is homosexual or heterosexual. The issue is whether they can make a commitment [to chastity]." 6
	Bishop Jerome Listecki is an auxiliary bishop in Chicago. He estimates that "perhaps more than 10%" of priests have a homosexual orientation." (Emphasis ours). 5
	Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that 'the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.' 5 In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.
	A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation. 7
	Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. 8

Actual surveys:

In the Fall of 1999, the Kansas City Star sent a questionnaire to 3,000 priests in the U.S. 73% did not reply. The low response rate could be anticipated. One would expect homosexuals and bisexuals to be reluctant to respond to the questionnaire since it deals with such a sensitive issue, and originated from a newspaper. Homosexual and bisexual priests would probably be less likely to reply to the survey. Among the 801 priests who did reply:

	75% said they had a heterosexual orientation;
	15% homosexual;
	5% bisexual. 9

During 1990, Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in Passaic, N.J., mailed a survey to 500 randomly selected priests. Of the 398 responses,  about 45% said that they were gay. ₁₀

Conclusion: If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three.

However, as Father Donald Cozzens wrote:

"Beyond these estimates, of course, are priests who remain confused about their orientation and men who have so successfully denied their orientation, that in spite of predominately same-sex erotic fantasies, they insist that they are heterosexual." ₁₁

Many define "homosexuality" in terms of actual same-sex behavior. They regard themselves as not homosexual because they have never acted on their fantasies, desire and orientation. To that might be added an unknown percentage of priests who have a bisexual orientation, and consider themselves neither homosexual or bisexual.

. . .

What does the future hold?

A USA Today/Gallup poll taken during 2002-MAR found that:

	72% of Roman Catholics say the church leadership has done a bad job dealing with sexual abuse by priests,
	74% say that the church is more concerned with protecting its own image than with solving the problem. 13 FROM: http://www.rentapriest.com/roman-catholic-traditions.htm
39 Popes Were Married! 10/25/2002 by Father John Shuster, Married Roman Catholic Priest My name is Father John Shuster.I am a married Roman Catholic priest. Please call me "John".    I want to tell you about a crisis in our Roman Catholic Church. There is an alarming shortage of celibate priests.1 The shortage is so acute that many parishes are being forced to close.2 At the same time, there are over twenty thousand married priests here in the United States. To put that in better perspective, one out of every three priests has married. That’s a large number of priests available to staff parishes - over four hundred priests, on average, per state. Married priests are still priests, but we are no longer clerics.    Let’s examine the difference between a priest and a cleric. A priest is engaged in a vocation of service, a spiritual calling from God. A cleric occupies an organizational position in the institutional church.    When a priest marries, he is dismissed from the clerical state. But he retains the fullness of the priesthood. He should be referred to as an "ex-cleric." Many mistakenly use the term "ex-priest". He is ordained to be a priest, not a cleric. Ordination is permanent. This fact is validated by church law, Canon 290.    Twenty-one church laws entitle Catholics to utilize married priests. In marriage, by virtue of Canon 290, our education, our ordination and 12 centuries of Roman Catholic tradition, priests retain the role of administering to people as Jesus did. We married priests have NOT abandoned our faith. We continue to help Catholics in need and look forward to our full reinstatement when the man-made law of celibacy is rescinded.    At the threshold of the millennium, thirty percent of all priests are now married. It is felt that God is calling us back to our original Roman Catholic tradition. And, since society has finally recognized their equality, it is time the church granted women equality for pastoral service. In fact, many married priests and their wives minister as a couple. Married Priests in the Early Church    History fully supports a married priesthood. For the first 1200 years of the Church’s existence, priests, bishops and 39 popes were married.3 Celibacy existed in the first century among hermits and monks, but it was considered an optional, alternative lifestyle. Medieval politics brought about the discipline of mandatory celibacy for priests. Let’s remember the words of Jesus: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church." St. Peter, the pope who was closest to Jesus, was married. There are three references in the Gospel about St. Peter’s wife, his mother-in-law and his family. Based on Jewish law and custom, we can safely assume that all of the Apostles, except for young John, were married with families. 4    Married priests and their spouses were the first pastors, the first bishops, the first missionaries. They carried the message of Jesus across cultures and protected it through many hardships. They guided the fragile young Church through its early growth and helped it survive numerous persecutions.    Pope John Paul II recognized this in 1993 when he said publicly that celibacy is not essential to the priesthood.5 This pronouncement offers great promise toward resolving the problem of the shortage of celibate priests. The early Church was a network of small family-based communities throughout the Mediterranean region. Life was marked by a sense of joyful expectation. Jesus said that he would return and the first Christians believed that it would be soon. Led by married priests, they met at each other’s homes to celebrate the Mass. Strangers were invited to share the bread and wine. No one was excluded from receiving Communion. The strangers soon became friends, joined the young Church, and brought others to hear the good news of Jesus.    Sacred Scripture documents that priests and bishops of the early Church were married. In the New Testament, in his first letter to Timothy, chapter 3, verses 1 through 7, St. Paul discusses the qualities necessary for a bishop. He describes a "kind and peaceable" father, a man with a family. As part of his description, St. Paul even asks the question, "...how can any man who does not understand how to manage his own family have responsibility for the church of God?" St. Paul established many small communities and left them in the hands of married priests and bishops.    Church leadership was based in service and was accountable to the people. Each member of the church had a voice in the community. As we read in the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 15, verse 22, group decisions were made in agreement with the whole assembly. The early Church is portrayed as democratic, where leadership listened to the community and responded to its needs. Roman Influence in the Church    How did we evolve to the large institution that we have today? What happened to the married priesthood? It began in AD 313, when the Roman emperor Constantine legalized Christianity within the Roman Empire. With his legislation, the early Church evolved from a persecuted group of small communities to become the official faith of a world power under Emperor Theodosius in AD 380.    Constantine’s intentions in adopting Christianity were not entirely spiritual.6 His position was being challenged by political groups; he needed to display his power. Forcing other politicians to become Christians was a test of their loyalty.    Constantine used the new religion as an effective tool to weed out his enemies. It strengthened his political power. Constantine also was faced with unifying the many peoples his armies had vanquished. Christianity was the key to establishing a new Roman identity in the conquered peoples. On the surface he made them Christians to save their souls, but this new religion was his final act of conquest over them.    With Christianity now the official religion of the Roman Empire, many things changed very quickly in the Church. Priests from the small communities were given special social rank among their new Roman friends. They no longer had to hide from Roman soldiers and fear for their lives. Instead, they received pay for their services as priests and enjoyed special privileges in Roman society. Bishops were given civil authority and assigned jurisdiction over the people in their area.7 Romans, who were members of the local ruling elite, quickly converted to Christianity as ordered by the Emperor. These were men trained in public life and skilled in city politics.8 They became priests and rapidly moved into positions of leadership in the Church.    These Roman politicians, with their newly acquired priesthood, brought the impersonal and legalistic attitudes of government to the Church. The celebration of the Eucharist moved from small home gatherings to what we now call "mass" involving huge numbers of people in large buildings. The celebration of the Eucharist became a highly structured ritual that imitated the ceremonies of Rome’s imperial court. This Roman influence is the source of our vestments, genuflection, kneeling, and the strict formality of Mass.    An institutional Church structure emerged mirroring that of the Roman government. Large buildings, church tribunal courts, rulers and subjects began to replace the family-based small communities that were served by a local married priesthood. The new Roman priests worked to shift authority away from the married priests in the small communities and consolidate political power around themselves. With the assistance of the Roman Empire, Church leadership became a hierarchy that moved away from its family origins and into the Roman mindset of a ruling class that was above the people in the street.9    Other changes occurred that shifted emphasis away from the people and towards the preferences of the Roman politicians. The Church adopted the Roman practice of men alone holding institutional authority. There is solid historical evidence that women served as priests and pastors prior to this time.10 Women Priests in the Early Church    In 494 women’s participation in the leadership of small communities came to an end when Pope Gelasius decreed that women could no longer be ordained to the priesthood. 11 This legislation is perhaps the strongest proof we have of women serving as spiritual leaders in the early Church. Women’s roles in the church diminished as popes and bishops marched in lockstep with the Roman authorities.