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To: Mad Dawg

Then make it true, please. Give me your Catholic teaching that proves we are equal in salvation. Otherwise I will have to depend on Vatican 2 that says actually there is NO salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.


3,688 posted on 09/10/2010 8:18:06 PM PDT by smvoice (smvoice- formally known as small voice in the wilderness. Easier on the typing!)
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To: smvoice
Can you find me the exact wording for what you present as "there is NO salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church."

This is when your side starts complaining about shifting grounds and rubber dictionaries, and not without some justification.

Funnily enough, it relates to the conversation about form and matter, substance and accidents.

I ask you to stipulate:
-1- that there is only ONE Church.
-2- that Baptism is the ORDINARY (not exclusive or only) means of joining that Church.
-3- That the blessed in Heaven are in that Church.

Not too bad so far, right?

Now, hold your nose and stipulate THIS:
- the fullest 'instantiation' of the one Church on earth is the bunch o' folks in communion with the Holy See. (In this connection it's important to remember that there are Catholics who are not "Roman" - that is, Latin Rite - Catholics, such as Maronites and Ukrainian Catholics, and others.)

I'm not asking you to agree, just see the way it's laid out.

What this means (the way I say it) is that if you go to communion in the Catholic Church (with the right intention) then you can rely on having gotten whatever good communion offers. Similarly if y9ou are a penitent and contrite as you can be (So it's an internal standard) and you go to confession, you are indeed forgiven.

So we claim we have 'reliable' 'helps'.

WE do not claim to know whether or how "separated brethren are saved, but we are open to the possibility of their being brought into the fellowship of the one Church in Heaven.

I say again, that Church is (or will be) the heavenly perfection of the one Church on earth. IN that sense it will be the catholic, and even the Catholic, Church. The unity will be perfected in heaven and the separation overcome.

All this seems to me to follow from Dominus Iesus and from the passages in the Catechism about salvation of the unBaptized.

I'm not asking you to agree. I am merely addressing the meaning of Unam Sanctam and or any other declarations about the relationship between being saved into heaven and being in the Church.

3,700 posted on 09/10/2010 8:36:56 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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