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To: Quix; Religion Moderator; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; wmfights
The Religion forum is a microcosm of Thomas Sowell's analysis of American society in general in his book; "A Conflict of Visions".

Here's how one Amazon book reviewer put it:

The Tragic (constrained) vision of human nature views man as possessing foibles, incentives, and the desire to act in his own self-interest. The Tragic "sees the evils of the world as deriving from the limited and unhappy choices available, given the inherent moral and intellectual limitations of human beings."...

The Utopian (unconstrained) vision holds that man has not yet achieved his full moral potential, and that that potential is essentially perfectible. It is "foolish and immoral choices explain the evils of the world - and that wiser or more moral and humane social policies are the solution."

These different "Visions", as Sowell calls them, are irreconcilable. Our Utopian Romanist FRiends believe that things should be moderated by "reason" as dictated by select elites. The Tragics here see the Utopians for what they are, Liberals.

2,860 posted on 09/09/2010 11:57:56 AM PDT by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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To: the_conscience

The Tragic (constrained) vision of human nature views man as possessing foibles, incentives, and the desire to act in his own self-interest. The Tragic “sees the evils of the world as deriving from the limited and unhappy choices available, given the inherent moral and intellectual limitations of human beings.”...
The Utopian (unconstrained) vision holds that man has not yet achieved his full moral potential, and that that potential is essentially perfectible. It is “foolish and immoral choices explain the evils of the world - and that wiser or more moral and humane social policies are the solution.”

These different “Visions”, as Sowell calls them, are irreconcilable. Our Utopian Romanist FRiends believe that things should be moderated by “reason” as dictated by select elites. The Tragics here see the Utopians for what they are, Liberals.


INDEED.


2,875 posted on 09/09/2010 12:13:48 PM PDT by Quix (PAPAL AGENT DESIGNATED: Resident Filth of non-Roman Catholics)
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To: the_conscience
Our Utopian Romanist FRiends believe that things should be moderated by "reason" as dictated by select elites.

This is incomprehensible to me. Reason is reason.

3,067 posted on 09/09/2010 5:09:33 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: the_conscience
These different "Visions", as Sowell calls them, are irreconcilable.

Boy, is that the truth.

If we presuppose that man is "reasonable" by nature, we will always err on the side of attributing to man what belongs to God alone.

"Unless we have divine teaching to enlighten us, our own reason will beget nothing but mere vanity...What madness it is to embrace nothing but what commends itself to human reason! What authority will God's word have if it is not admitted any farther than we are inclined to receive it?" -- John Calvin

The joke is that Rome fancies itself founded upon "reason" when, in fact, it is riddled with superstition and fallacy because it departs so drastically from the word of God.

3,261 posted on 09/10/2010 12:43:56 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: the_conscience
The Tragic (constrained) vision of human nature views man as possessing foibles, incentives, and the desire to act in his own self-interest. The Tragic "sees the evils of the world as deriving from the limited and unhappy choices available, given the inherent moral and intellectual limitations of human beings."...

The Utopian (unconstrained) vision holds that man has not yet achieved his full moral potential, and that that potential is essentially perfectible. It is "foolish and immoral choices explain the evils of the world - and that wiser or more moral and humane social policies are the solution."

Just catching up, but great post from Thomas Sowell. Just looking at the different visions you see Calvinist vs. Arminian.

Our Utopian Romanist FRiends believe that things should be moderated by "reason" as dictated by select elites.

Here's a chicken or egg question that goes with this. Is the authoritarian structure and on going desire to control Christianity a product of the ruling class of this church when it emerged as the dominant church in the west, or is it because they saw no other way to achieve the "full moral potential" of people.

3,335 posted on 09/10/2010 6:45:18 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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