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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper
FK: “What about Mary?”

Kolo: +John Chrysostomos said she did indeed commit sin. Panagia was born as human as you and me. Her nature was as fallen as all mankind’s.

FK, the Eastern Church does  not believe in Mary's immaculate conception, so her nature is equally fallen,  as the rest of Adam's descendants, even if she dis not commit any personal sins. She still had the "maucla" (spot) of Adam's sin. Christ doesn't.

But Roman Catholics believe otherwise, and for that reason you won't hear a Roman Catholic priest chant with regard to Jesus  "for there is no one who lives and is sinless. You alone are without sin" precisely because someone would ask "What about Mary?"

The Roman Catholic dogma of Immaculate Conception implies that, besides Jesus, Mary was born ontologcially like the pre-Fall Eve, and supposedly remained in that state during her earthly life. The East believes that she was cleansed of all sin (basically baptized by the Spirit) at the Annunciation, and made an 'acceptable vessel," and that, being under special grace, she sinned not since.

15,738 posted on 11/11/2010 7:52:49 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis
The East believes that she was cleansed of all sin (basically baptized by the Spirit) at the Annunciation, and made an 'acceptable vessel," and that, being under special grace, she sinned not since.

At the Annunciation? I have a vague memory of there being some event concerning this involving Mary at a temple when she was three years old (I can't remember what it's called). In any case I can buy any three year old being considered sinless in deed at that point. But for Mary at the Annunciation, if she was born as the rest of us, and if she was "of age" which she seemed to be given what she said, then I would think it assumable that she must have committed "regular" voluntary sin before the Annunciation, before receiving any special grace.

15,762 posted on 11/12/2010 1:16:32 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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