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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; RnMomof7; MarkBsnr; stfassisi
Paul gave full credit to Christ for being God:

He does, because he describes Christ as the demiurge, the firstborn of all creation...However, Paul refers only to the Father as God in no uncertain terms: "there is but one God, the Father.."

Phil 2:6- Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God...

Your NIV is misleading you, FK. The Greek text uses the word mophe which means "external appearance," not the nature or essence. But this wouldn't be the first NIV doctrinally motivated alteration of the scriptures, and probably not the last. :)

I was talking about the one the elect will spend eternity going forward in: Matt. 16:19  

Having the keys to the kingdom in heaven does not say the "elect" will spend eternity [sic] there. It simply means the disciples will be given the means to act on God's behalf as his trusted servants (which seems a little ridiculous given that God is (1) omnipotent  and omniscient, and (2) already has obligate servants—angels—specifically created for that purpose, who did just about all his work on earth in the Old Testament; why does he need a new set of proverbilal "elfs" is curious).

And eternity, FK, is something that applies to prehistory as well as the future, without the beginning and without the end. Those who have been created in time can never live in eternity because there was a time when they did nto exist.

It means there is no weigh station after physical death in which we are tortured or otherwise purified by pain, subject to being bailed out by money or prayer. :) Since we often speak of the deceased as being at home with the Lord, I would use the two phrases you quote above synonymously.

Prayer, the Orthodox Church believes, does not bail out the soul in unrepentant sin, but eases its discomfort (caused by shame) in the presence of God.

The memorial services (panikhidas) are not petitions for God to save the soul of the departed, but services of gratitude in hopes that he did.

Since we often speak of the deceased as being at home with the Lord, I would use the two phrases you quote above synonymously

You yourself said that one can not know if another person is saved or not. Saying that the deceased is "at home with the Lord" contradicts your statement by implying that one does know.

15,689 posted on 11/10/2010 8:07:22 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; RnMomof7; MarkBsnr; stfassisi
"The memorial services (panikhidas) are not petitions for God to save the soul of the departed, but services of gratitude in hopes that he did."

In the Greek and Arab Churches the Memorial Service asks for God's mercy on the soul of the deceased and is somewhat different from the Slavic panikhidas. Here's a small part of the text from a Greek/Arab Memorial service:

"Priest: May the Lord God place his soul where the righteous repose. Let us ask for the mercies of God, the kingdom of Heaven, and the forgiveness of his sins from Christ our immortal king and God.

People:Grant this, O Lord.

Priest:Let us pray to the Lord.

People:Lord, have mercy.

Priest:O God of spirits and of all flesh, You have trampled down death and have abolished the power of the devil, giving life to Your world. Give rest to the soul of Your departed servant in a place of light, in a place of repose, in a place of refreshment, where there is no pain, sorrow, and suffering. As a good and loving God, forgive every sin he has committed in thought, word or deed, for there is no one who lives and is sinless. You alone are without sin. Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your word is truth.

Priest:For You are the resurrection, the life and the repose of Your departed servant, Christ our God, and to You we give glory, with Your eternal Father and Your all holy, good and life giving Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages."

15,693 posted on 11/10/2010 9:09:15 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; RnMomof7; MarkBsnr; stfassisi
And eternity, FK, is something that applies to prehistory as well as the future, without the beginning and without the end.

I know, that's why I said "eternity going forward". I figured everyone knew what I meant. :)

FK: Since we often speak of the deceased as being at home with the Lord, I would use the two phrases you quote above synonymously

You yourself said that one can not know if another person is saved or not. Saying that the deceased is "at home with the Lord" contradicts your statement by implying that one does know.

Yes that's true, but I think it is a commonly understood social grace to make the presumption out loud, especially at the time of loss. At those times I think it more Christian to be comforting to the loved ones rather than making fine theological distinctions. :) And, when we talk about someone in general ("Jim went to be with the Lord three years ago and ...") I think it's just a matter of showing respect for the outward signs of salvation that were observable during the lifetime. But theologically, you're right that we say we cannot be absolutely certain.

15,716 posted on 11/11/2010 7:16:41 AM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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