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To: stfassisi; D-fendr; Kolokotronis; kosta50; RnMomof7; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg

“Who was that “some one” who wanted hitler to kill millions of Jews BD?”

It was the same God who let the King of Syria kill hundreds of thousands of the northern tribes of Israel, and just last week permitted the church in Iraq to be attacked.

2 Kings 8:10-13, Elisha replied, “Tell him that he will get better, although the Lord has shown me that he is actually going to die.” He stared at him until he became embarrassed. Then the man of God began to cry. “Sir, why are you crying?” Hazael asked. Elisha answered, “I know the evil you will do to the Israelites: You will set their fortresses on fire, kill their best young men, smash their little children, and rip open their pregnant women.”
13 But Hazael asked, “How can a dog like me do such a significant thing?” Elisha answered, “The Lord has shown me that you will become king of Aram.”

Do you really believe that God is powerless to stop the atrocities or didn’t know they would take place? We don’t know why He allows evil to seemingly triumph but as Habakkuk said looking down the mouth of the Chaldean invaders,

Hab 3:16-19, When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops. Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls: Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

19 The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds’ feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places.


15,620 posted on 11/06/2010 7:06:57 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; stfassisi; D-fendr; kosta50; RnMomof7; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg
"Do you really believe that God is powerless to stop the atrocities or didn’t know they would take place? We don’t know why He allows evil to seemingly triumph...."

Well, here's +Basil the Great's take on this:

"Famines and droughts and floods are common plagues of cities and nations which check the excess of evil. Therefore, just as the physician is a benefactor even if he should cause pain or suffering to the body (for he strives with the disease, and not with the sufferer), so in the same manner God is good Who administers salvation to everyone through the means of particular chastisements. But you, not only do you not speak evilly of the physician who cuts some members, cauterizes others, and excises others again completely from the body, but you even give him money and address him as savior because he confines the disease to a small area before the infirmity can claim the whole body. However, when you see a city crushing its inhabitants in an earthquake, or a ship going down at sea with all hands, you do not shrink from wagging a blasphemous tongue against the true Physician and Savior....And you may accept the phrase 'I kill and I will make to live' literally, if you wish, since fear edifies the more simple. 'I will smite and I will heal'. It is profitable to also understand this phrase literally; for the smiting engenders fear, while the healing incites to love. It is permitted you, nonetheless, to attain to a loftier understanding of the utterance. I will slay through sin and make to live through righteousness. 'But though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day'. Therefore, He does not slay one, and give life to another, but through the means which He slays, He gives life to a man, and He heals a man with that which He smites him, according to the proverb which says, 'For thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from death'. So the flesh is chastised for the soul to be healed, and sin is put to death for righteousness to live.... When you hear 'There shall be no evil in a city which the Lord hath not wrought', understand by the noun 'evil' that the word intimates the tribulation brought upon sinners for the correction of offenses. For Scripture says, 'For I afflicted thee and straitened thee, to do good to thee'; so too is evil terminated before it spills out unhindered, as a strong dike or wall holds back a river.

"For these reasons, diseases of cities and nations, droughts, barrenness of the earth, and the more difficult conditions in the life of each, cut off the increase of wickedness. Thus, such evils come from God so as to uproot the true evils, for the tribulations of the body and all painful things from without have been devised for the restraining of sin. God, therefore, excises evil; never is evil from God.... The razing of cities, earthquakes and floods, the destruction of armies, shipwrecks and all catastrophes with many casualties which occur from earth or sea or air or fire or whatever cause, happen for the sobering of the survivors, because God chastises public evil with general scourges.

"The principal evil, therefore, which is sin, and which is especially worthy of the appellation of evil, depends upon our disposition; it depends upon us either to abstain from evil or to be in misery.

"Of the other evils, some are shown to be struggles for the proving of courage... while some are for the healing of sins... and some are for an example to make other men sober." +Basil the Great "That God is Not the Cause of Evils" "Ελληνες Πατερες της Εκκλησιας" (Greek Fathers of The Church) 7-94, 98-102

15,623 posted on 11/06/2010 7:46:29 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: blue-duncan; D-fendr; Kolokotronis; kosta50; MarkBsnr

“”It was the same God who let the King of Syria kill hundreds of thousands of the northern tribes of Israel, and just last week permitted the church in Iraq to be attacked.””

All of these were acts committed by free will of men, not attributed to the will of God.

“”Do you really believe that God is powerless to stop the atrocities or didn’t know they would take place?””

God’s power is His Love which NEVER ceases or God would be moved,it is the free will of man that denies this love and commits heinous acts. Just because God knows all things does not mean you can attach the evil to Him

You’re failing to see that man turning freely away from God’s love is what punishes man,it is not an angry God that kills people,it’s lack of love of man NOT attributed to God

God does not change from Love or it would be an imperfection
The Scripture that seem to suggest God is inconsistent with perfection are to be metaphorically understood

Thus we see Saint Aquinas write...

“But even other affections (affectiones), which are specifically inconsistent with divine perfection, are predicated in Holy Writ of God, not properly but metaphorically, on account of likeness of effects. Thus sometimes the will in following out the order of wisdom tends to the same effect to which one might be inclined by a passion, which would argue a certain imperfection: for the judge punishes from a sense of justice, as an angry man under the promptings of anger. So sometimes God is said to be ‘angry,’ inasmuch as in the order of His wisdom He means to punish some one: When his anger shall blaze out suddenly (Ps. ii, 13). He is said to be ‘compassionate,’ inasmuch as in His benevolence He takes away the miseries of men, as we do the same from a sentiment of pity: The Lord is merciful and compassionate, patient and abounding in mercy (Ps. cli, 8). Sometimes also He is said to be ‘repentant,’ inasmuch as in the eternal and immutable order of His providence, He builds up what He had previously destroyed, or destroys what He had previously made, as we do when moved by repentance: It repenteth me that I have made man (Gen. vi, 6, 7). God is also said to be ‘sad,’ inasmuch as things happen contrary to what He loves and approves, as sadness is in us at what happens against our will: And the Lord saw, and it seemed evil in his eyes, because judgement is not: God saw that there is no man, and he was displeased, because there was none to meet him (Isa. lix, 15, “

And....

That God cannot will Evil by Saint Aquinas

EVERY act of God is an act of virtue, since His virtue is His essence (Chap. XCII).

2. The will cannot will evil except by some error coming to be in the reason, at least in the matter of the particular choice there and then made. For as the object of the will is good, apprehended as such, the will cannot tend to evil unless evil be somehow proposed to it as good; and that cannot be without error.* But in the divine cognition there can be no error . 3. God is the sovereign good, admitting no intermixture of evil. 4. Evil cannot befall the will except by its being turned away from its end. But the divine will cannot be turned away from its end, being unable to will except by willing itself . It cannot therefore will evil; and thus free will in it is naturally established in good. This is the meaning of the texts: God is faithful and without iniquity (Deut. xxxii, 4); Thine eyes are clean, O Lord, and thou canst not look upon iniquity (Hab.i, 13).


15,638 posted on 11/07/2010 8:29:40 AM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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