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To: kosta50; TSgt; RnMomof7; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; the_conscience; ...
If they all believed one and the same thing, that might have some merit. But Protestant Christians believe all sorts of things.

The vast majority of Protestants agree on all the basics -- men are saved by God's grace alone in faith alone in Jesus Christ alone for God's glory alone as revealed in God's infallible word alone, and that men are justified not by their own works but by Christ's righteousness freely and mercifully imputed to them by God.

None of which Roman Catholics believe. Thus, the Reformation.

Everyone can be in error, Dr. E. How can you be absolutely certain that your faith is right and my doubt is wrong?

That is the first rational question you've asked in a long time. My response is that the doubt I once endured has been replaced by a steadiness that was foreign to me before. The comfort and ease that accompany believing Christ has paid for my sins satisfies my mind's questions, my heart's fears, my body's anxiety and literally brings joy to my eyes. I see what once I missed. Therefore, the doubt diminishes daily.

It seems that doubt is part and parcel of the human condition. Even Christ experienced it on the cross, fulfilling prophecy but also to illustrate that in all ways God knows how and why we suffer.

"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." -- Hebrews 2:16

I don't know if my faith will ever by 100%. I'm okay with 99%. I'm happier believing there's a reason why we live. And doubt can end up becoming very egocentric.

As Van Til concludes...

WHY I BELIEVE IN GOD
by Cornelius Van Til

"...Looking about me I see both order and disorder in every dimension of life. But I look at both of them in the light of the Great Orderer Who is back of them. I need not deny either of them in the interest of optimism or in the interest of pessimism. I see the strong men of biology searching diligently through hill and dale to prove that the creation doctrine is not true with respect to the human body, only to return and admit that the missing link is missing still. I see the strong men of psychology search deep and far into the sub-consciousness, child and animal consciousness, in order to prove that the creation and providence doctrines are not true with respect to the human soul, only to return and admit that the gulf between human and animal intelligence is as great as ever. I see the strong men of logic and scientific methodology search deep into the transcendental for a validity that will not be swept away by the ever-changing tide of the wholly new, only to return and say that they can find no bridge from logic to reality, or from reality to logic. And yet I find all these, though standing on their heads, reporting much that is true. I need only to turn their reports right side up, making God instead of man the center of it all, and I have a marvelous display of the facts as God has intended me to see them.

And if my unity is comprehensive enough to include the efforts of those who reject it, it is large enough even to include that which those who have been set upright by regeneration cannot see. My unity is that of a child who walks with its father through the woods. The child is not afraid because its father knows it all and is capable of handling every situation. So I readily grant that there are some "difficulties" with respect to belief in God and His revelation in nature and Scripture that I cannot solve. In fact there is mystery in every relationship with respect to every fact that faces me, for the reason that all facts have their final explanation in God Whose thoughts are higher than my thoughts, and Whose ways are higher than my ways. And it is exactly that sort of God that I need. Without such a God, without the God of the Bible, the God of authority, the God who is self-contained and therefore incomprehensible to men, there would be no reason in anything. No human being can explain in the sense of seeing through all things, but only he who believes in God has the right to hold that there is an explanation at all.

So you see when I was young I was conditioned on every side; I could not help believing in God. Now that I am older I still cannot help believing in God. I believe in God now because unless I have Him as the All-Conditioner, life is Chaos.

I shall not convert you at the end of my argument. I think the argument is sound. I hold that belief in God is not merely as reasonable as other belief, or even a little or infinitely more probably true than other belief; I hold rather that unless you believe in God you can logically believe in nothing else. But since I believe in such a God, a God who has conditioned you as well as me, I know that you can to your own satisfaction, by the help of the biologists, the psychologists, the logicians, and the Bible critics reduce everything I have said this afternoon and evening to the circular meanderings of a hopeless authoritarian. Well, my meanderings have, to be sure, been circular; they have made everything turn on God. So now I shall leave you with Him, and with His mercy."


15,451 posted on 11/02/2010 1:59:25 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"The vast majority of Protestants agree on all the basics -- men are saved by God's grace alone in faith alone in Jesus Christ alone for God's glory alone as revealed in God's infallible word alone, and that men are justified not by their own works but by Christ's righteousness freely and mercifully imputed to them by God."
Or - according to some protestants - by being born lucky.
15,458 posted on 11/02/2010 8:44:21 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The vast majority of Protestants agree on all the basics -- [1] men are saved by God's grace alone in faith alone in Jesus Christ alone for God's glory alone as revealed in God's infallible word alone, [2] and that men are justified not by their own works but by Christ's righteousness freely and mercifully imputed to them by God.

This is all the basics? It's all about me, me and me and my salvation. The basics of Christianity, Dr. E., are the (1) trinitarian God, (2) the Son, being one person in two unconfused natures, fully God and fully man, (3) the Incarnation and (4) Resurrection.  

Of course, all Protestants do not agree on these, and even members of the same sect disagree on doctrines they formally agree on. Everytone has his or her own idea of the Holy Trinity, the way Christ's two natures interact, whether we have free will or not, whether we should baptize infants or not, whether our works damn us or not, etc.

One thing is certain: the Protestants disagree on a lot more than what they agree on.

That is the first rational question you've asked in a long time. My response is that the doubt I once endured has been replaced by a steadiness that was foreign to me before.

I was hoping I would get an equally rational answer. I didn't. You have people like Richard Dawkins who says the same narcissistic thing and expects everyone to beioeve him, except in his case his path took the opposite direction, into disbelief.

What makes his conclusion wrong and yours right? Again, what seems right for you is not necessarily absolutely right.  Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. So, you didn't really answer me how do you know that your faith is right and my doubt is wrong? A Muslim could have givne me the same asnwer you gave me. is that any profo of "knowledge"? You gave me an answer that can be reduced to this: I am right and you are wrong because I believe it. 

It seems that doubt is part and parcel of the human condition. Even Christ experienced it on the cross

Then his faith was imperfect. 

I don't know if my faith will ever by 100%. I'm okay with 99%.

How do you know it's 99% and not 98, or 98.5, or 90...

I'm happier believing there's a reason why we live. And doubt can end up becoming very egocentric 

Dr. E, everything you are telling me is egocentric. What else is saying I believe because "I am happier believing..." It's a feel-good, egocentric attitude, what makes us happy, not necessarily what is true. It's like someone saying I smoke because I like it. Does that mean smoking is the right thing to do and to wish it on everyone?

As Van Til concludes...

I don't know who Cornelius is or was, but I am not impressed with his work, although I can see his  thinking pattern as a familiar folly used by many. Just because the massing link is still missing doesn't prove the existence of God, or justify a supposition that he does when we don;t even know what God is. Nothing is more ridiculous then men who write that God is incomprehensible and then proceed to tell you and explain everything about him in intricate detail.

15,461 posted on 11/03/2010 12:30:19 AM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50; D-fendr; wmfights; RnMomof7; caww
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights and those beautiful Scriptures, dear sister in Christ!

kosta50: If they all believed one and the same thing, that might have some merit. But Protestant Christians believe all sorts of things.

The question brought to mind the series finale of "Tudors." Henry the VIII had just chewed out the parliament for their various interpretations of Scriptures and the resulting discord among them - and reasserted his benevolence in allowing the Scriptures to be translated and made available in the native tongue - and his authority in the Church of England to interpret them. In response, the Queen privately remarked to her ladies (paraphrased) that it was irrational to give the people the ability to read the Scriptures in their native tongue while at the same time disallowing them to interpret what they were reading.

I found that particularly fascinating considering the anti-Christ attitude of Hollywood we often see in their scripts.

The logic is very compelling in making a case on secular grounds that allowing translation and private reading of Scripture goes hand-in-glove with private comprehension of whatever was read. It is disingenuous to do the former while complaining of the latter.

However, the words of God are spirit and life.

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matt 4:4

Give us this day our daily bread. – Matt 6:11 I am that bread of life. – John 6:48

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

God's words are the one, needful thing.

Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.

But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. – Luke 10:38-42

And again,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17

The natural man cannot discern Spiritual matters.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:11-13

Indeed, not every man is endowed with the gift of spiritual hearing.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:- Matt 13:14

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

And not every man hears with equal clarity what He says to us. But our discernment improves with our spiritual walk in Him.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7

So I aver that the operative point here is not when man mistranslates or fails to understand the words of God but the words of God themselves because man cannot thwart the will of God.

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. – Psalms 12:6-7

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11

God's Name is I AM.

15,493 posted on 11/03/2010 10:48:38 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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