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To: kosta50
The word lytron is the price for redeeming, the price. It's not extortion. It is something you voluntarily offer. Christ offered to die (offered himself to "death") in exchange for all those held captive by it. The Church does not say he offered himself to satan.

My sources say that Athenaeus and Origen did.

Death is used as a personalized concept by Paul when he combines the controversial Isaiah 25:8, with Hosea 13:14, namely "death is swallowed up in victory, o death where is thy victory? Where is thy sting?" (1 Cor 15:54-55).

But what is that victory? How did it come about?

More specifically, lytron was the price paid for slaves or captives.

That is not extortion? That is ransom which by definition is a type of extortion. Paid by one entity to another - grieving family to warlord or one king to another.

15,433 posted on 11/02/2010 7:17:48 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr
My sources say that Athenaeus and Origen did

Do you have the exact quotes? I'd like to add them to my collection.

But what is that victory? How did it come about?

That's why I said 1 Cor 15:54 is "controversial". Victory suggests struggle, but Isa 25:8, from which Paul quotes, does not have victory in the verse, because there is no struggle.

In Isaiah, God simply comes and swallows death! But Paul, apparently, decided to add the word "victory" for doctrinal purposes!

Likewise, 1 Cor 15:55 quotes from Hosea 13:14, except that it also distorts the OT quote to make it "flow" with his corrupted version of Isaiah 25:8.

There is no mention of victory in Hosea 13 either. (remember, Judaim is not a dualistic religion, so God is not "struggling" to defeat his "rival") It is a snipped, just as the previous one, from a much longer verse, and a misleading one at that.

Hoseas 13:14 reads "Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from death? O Death, where are your thorns? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion will be hidden from My sight."

Hosea 13, by the way, has to do with Ephraim's idolatry and in unrelated to anything resembling Christ's death and descent into hell or the messiah in general.

This is a perfect example of how Paul's "gospel" was built up from snippets of unrelated OT verses, conveniently altered to fit the story he was preaching. Now Thomas Jefferson's words that Paul was the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus" begin to make a lot of sense. Unfortunately.

That is not extortion?

No, not really. It means "the asking price". The captives were held legally; they were all guilty of sin.

15,443 posted on 11/02/2010 8:27:56 AM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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