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To: D-fendr
So, would it be correct to get from this that you are asking for God’s forgiveness in the relational realm? You have it in the eternal realm already but do not have His forgiveness in the relational realm, so this is the forgiveness you are necessarily asking for. Would that be a correct statement in your view?

No, I am actually thanking God for his forgiveness in the relational realm. He says he IS faithful and just to forgive us. My act of confession is my way of admitting my wrongs and, in the confidence that God will and has forgiven me, I can continue in that relationship refreshed, clean and joyful of his everlasting love. I am not estranged from him relationally.

I get the impression you think I believe I just "accept the Lord" and then go about the rest of my life living any old way I please. I have sincerely tried to explain that is NOT what I think at all. But let me ask you a question or two.

Do you believe that God knew before he created the world that you would be born and everything you would do?

Do you believe that when you go to confession, and are genuinely contrite, that God would withhold forgiveness from you when you ask for it?

15,286 posted on 10/29/2010 7:16:36 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
Thanks for your reply:

No, I am actually thanking God for his forgiveness in the relational realm.

But the statement I'm asking about is:

“we pray to God and ask for forgiveness every day”

Not thanking, not confessing, but "ask for forgiveness."

I feel like I'm hectoring you, but I'm trying to stay on topic: If you believe you are already forgiven for your sins - past, present and future - why ask for forgiveness?

I get the impression you think I believe I just "accept the Lord" and then go about the rest of my life living any old way I please.

Honestly, I don't. As I look at Calvinism, one must forget or ignore the underlying theology: what it says about God, our choices, and in this case confession and asking for forgiveness. I believe the theology gets in the way of growing as a Christian. In this case, as Christians, we confess our sins and ask His forgiveness - but this violates the theology that we already have it.

So, I'm not doubting your walk, just that it contradicts the theology.

Do you believe that God knew before he created the world that you would be born and everything you would do?

Yes, but He also chose to create me with free will - by definition He does not make all my choices. And, logically, foreknowledge does not equate to causation.

Do you believe that when you go to confession, and are genuinely contrite, that God would withhold forgiveness from you when you ask for it?

I believe in a loving merciful God. If I follow Calvin's theology, I don't see that God there. Simple answer is yes I believe if I am genuinely contrite and trying my best to follow Jesus's commandments, He forgives me when I miss the mark.

I'm grateful for His grace that I miss it by a smaller angle than before.

Am I genuinely, perfectly contrite always? I doubt it. By far my most common prayer is "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner."

So I cannot think in terms of: "Am I contrite enough to be forgiven enough to get to heaven?" On the contrary, acting with this motivation grows the self, which needs to die.

I wish to be with God. I move away from Him when I sin, and I harm others. I try my best to examine my conscience, grow in discernment, decrease in sin and self, confess and ask His forgiveness and grace. But I pray most for His mercy.

I am not God, the final judgement is His; I'll find out what that is soon enough.

15,288 posted on 10/29/2010 8:41:28 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: boatbums
No, I am actually thanking God for his forgiveness in the relational realm. He says he IS faithful and just to forgive us.

Forgiveness of sins is not just. Quite the opposite. It is unjust because it is merciful. Christianity is not a belief in justice - it is a belief in mercy. We Catholics and Orthodox pray Oh, God, we pray that you have mercy on us, a sinner. We do not pray that God takes His Justice upon us. That would be a bad thing for us, and would sentence all of humanity in with the lord of this world in the end.

15,336 posted on 10/30/2010 6:47:58 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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