Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
Maybe we Catholics over stress this, but it seems to me that the disagreements among the differing schools of thought which all claim to be "Scripture Alone" makes this the only possible conclusion. On the finer matters of prevenient grace and of the saint's participation, if any, in his salvation, it seems that the hermeneutic dominates, NOT Scripture Alone.
Me, myself, personally, I prick up my ears when anyone says "obviously". Usually it is not so obvious unless you share the speaker's assumptions.
“”I think that sin ‘offends’ God AND damages the sinner. So God somehow needs propitiating AND the sinner needs, uh, repair, cleaning up, something.””
Well said,dear friend. We can take that a step further and understand that sin also effects fellow man,so, sin goes beyond us just asking forgiveness. Reparation needs to be made for the offense we caused fellow man.(which in many cases causes them to sin because of our offense)
The Saints went beyond this and made reparation for others beyond their own sins and joined union with the sufferings of Christ out of love for Christ and others
There are common themes you find amongst the heretics such as valentinians,sethians,marcionites,bardaisans etc.. and Calvinism
Yes, the Calvinism exhibited here does sound like heresy piled upon heresy - and then folded back on itself.
One is God planned evil or created it,the other is free will is not understood properly and lastly there is misrepresentations of the Apostle Saint Paul.
Yep, yep and yep.
And I think this is an extremely important point to make. We can sit here and debate every little facet with which we disagree with one another and never get anywhere. The arguments never have resolution, always lead to additional arguments and endlessly continue for years. I try very hard to keep to the main point and that is, as you said, having to do with our salvation.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy discussing differences with the best of them, but when things get nasty - and they usually do when certain tender spots get touched - I know to just back off, to agree to disagree is sometimes the most mature and productive stance to take.
That is indisputable! ;-) One or the other pretty much exhausts the possibilities, huh?
But yeah, I was getting a hint.
The deal, for me -- or one of the deals -- is that if we are called in Christ, we have what Catholics call "an apostolate" of our own. So when I reflect on the bloodier parts of these threads, and on my snippier posts, I have to judge them by an evangelical standard: Would a 'gentile' seeing this say, "These Christians, how they love one another!"
I'm guessing, not so much.
Today I have the kind of cold that hurts. You know the kind I mean, the nose hurts, the throat and chest hurt, coughing hurts, not coughing hurts, blah blah blah.
To some extent this sharpens my focus. The issue, more and more obviously in an age in which a woman in an interview can calmly talk about smothering her child with a pillow, is perhaps even more important than whether Catholic theology and practice makes the non-Catholic cut.
The issue is can a woman with an unwanted pregnancy come to any one of these combatants confident that she will be treated with sacrificial mercy and understanding? Can she trust that a pedal-to-the-metal Calvinist and a guy like me could and would want to cooperate in DOING the Love of Christ for her and her child?
The differences are important. But the difficulty we have in resolving them should encourage us to turn to God and trust in Him to bring about reconciliation. I don't think we're going to get there OR to give this starving world the true bread by mocking each other or by being needlessly contentious.
If that means I'm thin-skinned, I'm okay with that.
Hebrews 4: 14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
More than a little exhausted.
Thanks for your fine reply.
Will try to get back to it after some sleep.
Luke 2:6&7 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son.
It doesn't say *only* son, but *firstborn*.
Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
It doesn't say Joseph NEVER having union with her. Nor does it state that she remained a virgin after Jesus's birth, which, if her continually remaining a virgin was sooooo important, Scripture should have and would have stated, since God makes sure to include important things in the Bible.
Matthew 13:54-56 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"
And then there's this verse where Jesus' brothers are named BY NAME, JUST LIKE MARY. And the term *all* in reference to sisters, implies 3 or more. If it were one, it would be singular, if two the word *both* would have been used.
Those people knew who they were talking about and they knew who He was related to. If those children were not offspring of Mary and Joseph, then one of them committed adultery.
So again, the question arises.....WHY is it so important that Mary would have been perpetually a virgin? Once she delivered Jesus, the prophecy was fulfilled, that a virgin would conceive and bear a son. After that, there was no necessity for her to remain a virgin.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
I’m sorry you both are feeling poorly. I’ll pray for you.
You must not be aware of the Pontifical Biblical Commission and the many works it has produced.
I had to go back and pick up on this because it contradicts everything I've ever heard and seen. For 14 years my wife and I have worked with and been friends with priests and a common thread in all of our conversations about late night or emergency hospital runs is the overwhelming joy of reconciling someone to the Church at the deathbed and how frequently it happens. I'm not talking about a handful of cases, I'm talking about dozens if not hundreds of times hearing "it was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen".
Twice now I've been in a hospital expecting to die... clutching a rosary and calling for a priest. I wasn't afraid of dying, I wanted the bells and whistles to send me on my way (they didn't tell you about the whistle, oh no, I've said too much!). My confidence is in God... NOT myself. My trust is in Him, He won't let me down, He can't... I'm not unusual as a Catholic believing that.
No, theology is where I get my Christmas songs.
But there is no hint that Paul was discussing authority in any way, the context and the words he used do not point to such an interpretation against the established literal meaning and usage of “face” or “presence” for “prosopos”.
Furthermore you misunderstand what Chrysostom said:
Your comment was, “As St. John Chrysostom explain, he absolves him not in order to please the local priests but because that is the right thing to do, in Christ.”
But Chrysostom indicates just that, that Paul was simply trying to avoid producing hurt feeling because of some feeling overlooked.
Chrysostom:
“Then lest they should be hurt, as though overlooked, he adds, “for your sakes.” What then? Did he for men's sake pardon? No; for on this account he added, “In the person of Christ.”
And he asks, “What then? Did he for men's sake pardon?” and answers “No” even though that is exactly what Paul said he DID do! “..for your sakes forgave I it”.
But Chrysostom adds: “for on this account he added, “In the person of Christ.” which could indicate he thought Paul was imitating Christ in being forgiving.
But even here there is no discussion of Paul's authority to forgive or simply because “that is the right thing to do”.
Thag you bery mudge. By dose is stopped up.
No problem. I'll summon the Jesuit Ninja death squads. Every non-catholic who read that will "tell no tales" is you take my meaning.
The famous Joseph Heller quote from Catch-22 says; "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you". I am not frightened by anti-Catholicism but I am not ignorant enough to believe that it never existed and doesn't exist today. One need only read the postings on this thread by the morbidly anti-Catholics to see it is alive and well.
I thought the Calvinist definition was simply "happy". You guys need to huddle up and work this out between yourselves.
The beagle flies at midnight...
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