Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
I was at work and with my daughter, so my Freeping time is very small.
Gen. 5:24 is the typical verse. Tranditionaly scholars say that Enoch did not die, but was taken by God.
Dr. E: When a person such as yourself says they don't believe the Bible to be inspired by God, it does seem useless to post Scripture to prove you wrong.
That's because the Bible has been altered so many times that one can never know which parts are inspired and which profane. Even if it were not altered, we can not know, short of an a priori leap of faith that it is inspired; and then it is not knowlegde but a blind belief.
Dr. E: "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. " -- Matthew 10:32-33
Poor Peter! : )
Dr. E: No doubt her torment was real. To be without Christ is a frightening place to be.
How do you know that?
Lets put this through the test....
A non Christian soldier in combat throws himself on a grenade to save a Christian soldier's life.
According to your theory the non Christian is a slave to sin,thus by jumping on the grenade he must have committed a sin since he is a slave and bound to sin.
The other explanation of this is since you deny free will is that God wanted to play army that day and planned to blow up the person destined for hell for his good pleasure
Strange belief system you have either way.
Spot on.
That isn't "MY" theory. That is a direct quotation from the word of God.
However noble the non-Christian ONE act might have been, it does nothing to please God. God states that every one of us has a time to be born and a time to die. It is up to God as to when and how we'll die.
Strange belief system you have either way.
I can't help it if you disagree with St. Paul. What is stranger than my belief system is that you believe throwing yourself on a grenade will save your soul.
Proverbs 10:1 1 The Proverbs of Solomon: A wise son makes his father glad, but a foolish son is a grief to his mother. 2 Ill-gotten treasures profit nothing, but virtue saves from death. 3 The LORD permits not the just to hunger, but the craving of the wicked he thwarts. 4 The slack hand impoverishes, but the hand of the diligent enriches. 5 A son who fills the granaries in summer is a credit; a son who slumbers during harvest, a disgrace. 6 Blessings are for the head of the just, but a rod for the back of the fool. 7 The memory of the just will be blessed, but the name of the wicked will rot. 8 A wise man heeds commands, but a prating fool will be overthrown. 9 He who walks honestly walks securely, but he whose ways are crooked will fare badly. 10 He who winks at a fault causes trouble, but he who frankly reproves promotes peace. 11 A fountain of life is the mouth of the just, but the mouth of the wicked conceals violence.
I do not detect violence, but wisdom...
Unconditional acts of love are from God
I can't help it if you disagree with St. Paul.
Your idea is paulism that calls good evil and what Christ says
"No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends."- John 15:13
This is what the non Christian soldier did by giving his life for his friend
Harley; whom do you believe that the Beatitudes are directed towards?
John 15: 1 1 2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. 2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes 3 so that it bears more fruit. 3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. 4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
6 4 Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. 8 By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. 9 As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. 11 "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete. 12 This is my commandment: love one another as I love you.
13 5 No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master is doing. I have called you friends, 6 because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father. 16 It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. 17 This I command you: love one another.
Some may believe in slavery; Jesus tells us that we are no longer slaves. But those who do not bear fruit ie works are pruned. Jesus chose us all and appointed us to bear the fruit that He wills. Those who do not, He will reject based upon the fruits which are non existent or not to His liking. We can do nothing without Him; but if we do nothing, we will be without Him.
Jesus tells us that we will remain in His love ie eternal salvation if and only if we love Him and each other.
Irresistible grace is not part of what any synod that I am familiar with teaches.
The 10,000 ft view of what I was taught, and what most synods that I know of teach, is that God makes the first move. We can not by our own reason or strength know or love God. The example that I was taught as a teenager was that a nomad living on the plains of what is now Russia in the year 40 AD would likely not have heard of Jesus. He would not, by his own reason, have a chance to know Him. Could that nomad have been saved? Well God can do what he wants, but if he was it was not the normal way.
How ever, we can reject God. As you said, forced love is not love it is rape (to be crude). Of those that I grew up with, even in my own family, some have rejected God. They did so by their own choice. Were they predestined to fall away and go to hell? No, that is not what the LCMS (or any) Lutheran Synod teaches. For one thing, double predestination was explicitly rejected. While there is life, there is hope. So to say that those who have (or appear to) fall away are damned is something we can't say. For we are not God, and exist in time while He does not.
And you are right in that we Lutherans do not view things the same as the Catholic, or the Orthodox. If we did, we would probably be in Communion with one or the other. But then again, there are differences between the two also.
And if there were nothing else, that would be a good proof. However, if you go through Chapter 5, 6 and to 7 (a continuous teaching with no break in teaching or crowd movement or any other difference to the condition at the beginning of Matthew 5), we have:
Matthew 7: 28 13 When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 14 for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.
The crowds, Harley. The great crowds from:
Matthew 4:24 12 His fame spread to all of Syria, and they brought to him all who were sick with various diseases and racked with pain, those who were possessed, lunatics, and paralytics, and he cured them. 25 And great crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, 13 Jerusalem, and Judea, and from beyond the Jordan followed him.
Therefore, I believe that the Beatitudes teaching only to the disciples is a wrong interpretation and the Church interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount (same as the Sermon on the Plains which is clearly addressed to all the people) to the crowds which followed Him is the correct one.
How do we know that the Sermon on the Plain is directed to the crowds?
Luke 7:1 2 When he had finished all his words to the people, he entered Capernaum.
Not just to the disciples, but to the people who followed Him.
Then what do you make of Christ's own words, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
That may appear to be cherry-picking a verse, but I am certain many sermons have been preached just on those few words alone. For one thing, it's a caveat: "Greater love hath no man than this" with a specific act attached, dying in the place of another. That's not general, that's not symbolic, that's not an allegory. It's a clear, concise statement of the greatest love that a man can have. It is my opinion that Christ will not disregard that supreme act of sacrifice; you may differ.
In my opinion, that's the same thing Mother Teresa did: In spite of her private doubts, she acted on her belief in God's call. In spite of her spiritual poverty, she treated each poor person she cared for as if the person were Christ, acting on Christ's words, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me." She did this for decades, to the best of her ability. She spent her life for others. She trained followers, she prayed no matter how she felt; she worked every day -- that's giving up her life for Christ, her Friend.
Is non-belief or doubt a sin too great for Christ to conquer? In my opinion, no. In a spiritual desert, when one does not have a sense of the Presence of the Savior, it is a failure of perception, not of Grace. When we are depressed, we may not be sensible of the angelic choir, but that does not mean they do not sing. Exhausted, we may lack the comfort of hope, but everything remains in God's Saving Hands.
So, in spite of your theory, even a slave to sin may be a child of God. God, the Author of Nobility, is not indifferent to it. God, the Father of Love, sees His own. Human judgement is fallible. He sees the heart.
Here is another analogy for you...
A non Christian girl decides not to have an abortion.
According to what you just said this does not please God and it would not matter to God if she had the Abortion
You do understand that there CAN be crowds of disciples, even if they're not sitting in Europe's cathedrals.
Therefore, I believe that the Beatitudes teaching only to the disciples is a wrong...
Yet you dismiss them all as unbelievers and deny the very words of Matthew and Luke both as to who Jesus preached to with a wave of your Reformed hand. On another thread, I just had a Reformed dismiss Paul's teachings on the Crucifixion with a wave of her hand. Here, you seemingly dismiss the identification of Matthew and Luke as to whom the message was directed with a wave of your hand. Tell me, how much Scripture is actually left in your Bible?
Mother Teresa was not saved by how much she did. Everyone is saved by placing their faith in our Lord Jesus' saving work on the cross. We are sanctified by His blood.
Any good works that we may happen to have is a direct result of God working through us. He is the vine. We are the branches. She might have acted upon God's calling but it was God who called her.
Elijah asked God to take his life because he thought that he was alone. God told him that he still had 6,000 people "who had not bowed their knees to Baal" hidden in caves. Every Christian has a purpose, whether it's chopping up the priest of Baal or hiding in a cave until called upon. But it is all God's work. Your works are no better or worst than Mother Teresa. They're just different according to the plan God has for you. They're all created by Christ and given to you as a gift. Sometimes you can see them. Sometimes you can't. But they are promised to us and they are there.
I wouldn't dolt on how much sacrificing Mother Teresa did. You're just as important in God's kingdom and you produce fruit according to the talents God has given you.
Why on earth should God care just because someone fails to do ONE sin? There is NOTHING that pleases God except perfection-and that perfection is found only in His Son. If you doubt me just ask Adam who one little indiscretion was enough to cast his entire ancestors into the flaming torments of hell for all eternity. Do you honestly believe that living a "good" life will save you? Is there anywhere in scripture that states,
Well, diversity has never been in short supply in the Portestant movement. Protestants always have a choice of siding with Arminius or Calvin.
Were they predestined to fall away and go to hell? No, that is not what the LCMS (or any) Lutheran Synod teaches
So, the Missouri Synod does not teach that God predestines some to slavation?
So to say that those who have (or appear to) fall away are damned is something we can't say
Doesn't your Synod teach sola fide? Doesn't that mean that man is saved by faith alone and nothning esle?
Where does free will come in and for what reason?
Portestant=Protestant
slaveation=salvation
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