Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
How can will be free if you empatically deny free will?!? And is "guided" understood like a divine tractor beam attached to soemone's forehead, in which case how can such a person sin or do anything to "displease" God?
HARLEYD: Probably because that's where I'm needed most. ;O)
lol. And who says volunteerism is dead? 8~)
Do you have any children?
We weren't talking about sex. We were asked in impudent question which we refused to answer.
But generally statements like the above are white flags from Roman Catholic apologists who resort to crude comments when they've lost the debate because they have no rebuttal or solid argument.
In this instance, however, there may also be some of that well-documented sexual confusion on the part of those who support "another Christ" and Mary as "the wife of the Holy Spirit" and relics made out of genital odds and ends.
you know that is a very good point HD. Jesus had no free will, He came to do the Father's will. And he said, whoever does the will of my Father, is my brother, sister, etc. A Christian should be proud to acknowledge that they have no 'free will"
seen a lot of posts, this one is as boorish and tasteless as it gets
Not like that at all.
It was a RC apologist who inquired as to our contraception practices.
It was also a RC apologist who, out of the blue, told us about his sexual inhibitions that he said were the result of reading Dobson's book.
Which we've still not had any further reason given. Just a goofy assertion we're all supposed to take at face value.
So it is the RC apologist who turns these discussions to personal matters. Maybe they're hoping to work out their problems on an anonymous internet forum.
Good luck. Mental and physical well-being are admirable goals. Glad we could help.
And the bible speaks of Abraham and Sarah and "all the souls that they had gotten".
one can also have spiritual children, the Hebrew bible says that if one preaches to another and teaches him,and the other follows the word of God, the spiritual teacher is considered to be his father, for he has "made" his soul. Thus we are Christ's children, His little ones.
Amen. And each other's 8~)
Amen. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." -- Acts 17:28
I would suggest that it's more than just semantics. What most Protestants do not understand is that they are really espousing Catholic/Orthodox beliefs; man is free to make choices that will be pleasing to God. In other words, they choose to come to faith and should do good work leading to a more holy. It isn't a bit surprising that our Catholics friends agree with your position. What you should be questioning, in true Protestant fashion, is why do they agree with your position.
I think this is confusing, and I think it is confusing because it is trying to say there is free will and then that there is not.
There is no free will. You should erase that from your mind. The scriptures says that you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.
To put this another way, if there was free will, if you actually had a choice to choose God's way or your way, then why don't you choose to go God's way in every single decision that you make? The answer is that you are not truly free. You (and all of us) have a sin nature that rebels against freely doing the things of God.
I believe it is also confusing because it's counter to our experience, a very basic human experience of making decisions.
It is confusing because the doctrine is wrong and people keep perpetuating this myth. It was born out of Pelagius who believed we could do things pleasing to God. This was rebuked by the Church (at one time). It fester in the Church through people like John Cassian who was a student of Pelagius. It became more prominent during the Renaissance when humanism took hold of the Church. Protestant broke away in part because of the emphasis on this. Yet it crept into the Protestant church doctrine through Joseph Arminian.
It sounds really good. We hear the words of God. We make a choice. We decide to follow Christ. We fail but God will pick us up and set us on the path. It sounds great but it's all a lie that is nothing more than a works-based methodology cleverly disguised.
The real gospel according to scripture is: God opens our hearts to hear His word. God brings us to the point of repentance. God helps us to follow Him. God leads us in our path and, though we want to stray because of our nature, He pick us up and carries us through. Eventually, we are taught which directions to take through God's divine hand.
This is the Protestant (and true) gospel. Do you see a difference? In the Catholic version, the emphasis is on what "we" will do. Undoubtedly, many of our Catholic friends will quote to me some obscure cathacism; but the truth of the matter is their system is based upon pleasing God. In the Protestant version the emphasis is on God doing everything.
Alas, it is difficult to find many Protestant churches today that teaches the founding doctrines of the Protestant faith. But this was the belief of Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc, long ago. It is one of the reason Protestants were very angry at the Catholic church-and one of the reason Catholics hated the Protestants. If you don't believe me look at the Council of Trent which tells us man has "free will" and if someone says differently they should be cursed. Now why do you suppose that is?
In any given instant, deciding to follow God does not mean we are God or we create "good"; however, neither does it mean we do not have a decision to make and make it.
Yes, I would agree if I understand this correctly. When we become new creatures it not a *POOF* and you're good. God puts His Spirit in us to walk in His ways. WE can decide which way to choose but our Heavenly Father watches over us and guides our paths. If we choose poorly, God knows this, allows it and He uses this to teach us. God also guides us to do good things for His kingdom-which, if left to our own, we would not do.
Thanks for the ping.
Another lovely example of Christlike kindness from the OPC.
RIGHT! This is exactly why Catholics use the terms, "sister," "mother" and "father" for our religious and clergy. Nice of you to prove the point, scripturally.
That is the most blatantly obvious example of projection I've ever seen and I feel so sorry. For most of the last month I've been praying at Mass for someone in particular on this forum and a couple of weeks ago I started adding people, you among others. For about the last week I've been compelled to add you all into my daily prayers. I just finished Laudes and Prime (look them up) and you figured prominently in my intentions.
The antiphons for Laudes seemed particularly appropriate:
This is my commandment that you love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you, said the Lord.
Blessed are the peacemakers the clean of heart, they shall see God.
In your patience you shall possess your souls.
You who left all and follow me, you will get hundredfolds, and you will have the eternal life.
Of course the antiphon for Prime...
I believe that this post is not pretty.
I also believe that it’s fine-tuned finessing.
I believe that it is making the thread about a person.
Love is ONE of the attributes of God It was His love that sent Christ, but God has many attributes and among them them are justice and holiness. To deny the wrath of God is to have an idol God, one of one's own making
" "God’s attributes are balanced in His divine perfection. And they are perfectly balanced. If God did not have wrath and God did not have anger then He would not be God. God is perfect in love, on the one hand, and He is equally perfect in hate, on the other hand. Just as totally as He loves, so totally does He hate. As His love is unmixed, so is His hate unmixed. Of Christ, it says in Hebrews 1:9, “Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity.” And there is that perfect balance in the nature of God. As I mentioned, one of the tragedies of Christianity in our time is a failure to preach the hatred of God, the judgment of God. We’re so saccharine. We’re so sentimental. We’re so kind of mushy in our Christianity. When is the last time you heard a new song on the wrath of God? Heard one lately? I haven’t.....
The prophets spoke often of the wrath of God, the judgment of God. In Isaiah 9:19 it says: “Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened.”‑ And then this amazing statement: “And the people shall be as the fuel of the fire.”...
Now those are just a few passages. But the Bible is filled with statements about the wrath of God. You see His wrath exemplified in the Old Testament, against the old world when He brought the flood, against the people at the tower of Babel, against the Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain, against the Egyptians. On many occasions against the Israelites, against the enemies of Israel, you see His wrath poured out against Nadab and the others, against the spies, against Aaron and Miriam, against Abimelech, against the family of Saul, against Sennacherib, and it goes on and on.
You say ‑ Well, that’s the Old Testament. That’s right, but God doesn’t change, the same thing is true in the New Testament as well. You see the wrath of God. In John chapter 3, John ‑ that wonderful gospel written by a man of love, that gospel that presents the Lord Jesus Christ in all His wonder and majesty and beauty ‑ is yet a gospel that speaks of God’s wrath. John talks about it in several places, how that God’s wrath will be poured out but one particular one is at the end of the third chapter, the last verse: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.” It is not well with people who do not know Christ. It is not well with them. The wrath of God abides on them.
God is a God of wrath, people. He’s a God of anger. Now does that sound like a poor choice of starting points for the gospel? Think about it. The bad news has to come before the good news, doesn’t it? It’s kind of like going to the doctor...and having the doctor say to you ‑ I have bad news; you have a fatal illness that has killed many people. But, I have good news, a cure has been found and I have it right here. See the good news means nothing without the bad news. Right? You have to diagnose the disease before the cure means anything.
The bad news is ‑ God hates. The good news is ‑ God loves, but you have to start with His hate. First the diagnosis then the cure. Now look again at verse 18, it says: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven.” Why is that ‑ for ‑ there? What is that there for? Well, it connects us to the previous passage. The previous passage says ‑Justification is by faith alone. Why? Because the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. In other words, what that verse says is all men hold the truth unrighteously and are under the wrath of God. Therefore they have no capacity to justify themselves. So justification has to be by faith because all men, left to their own efforts, are under the wrath. Do you see? Justification is by faith, it has to be. It can’t be by works because by works all men are under wrath."
Hate is not perfection,it's a secondary action from perfection and love from the first cause of all things which is God and love. Perfect hate would mean God is moved and changed from first cause love.
Mac Carther(who wrote the article) does not think deeply enough to understand God is infinite love and does not change.
Aquinas makes sense of this
That God hates nothing by Saint Thomas Aquinas
AS love is to good, so is hatred to evil; we wish good to them whom we love, and evil to them whom we hate. If then the will of God cannot be inclined to evil, as has been shown , it is impossible for Him to hate anything.
2. The will of God tends to things other than Himself inasmuch as, by willing and loving His own being and goodness, He wishes it to be diffused as far as is possible by communication of His likeness. This then is what God wills in beings other than Himself, that there be in them the likeness of His goodness. Therefore God wills the good of everything, and hates nothing.
4. What is found naturally in all active causes, must be found especially in the Prime Agent. But all agents in their own way love the effects which they themselves produce, as parents their children, poets their own poems, craftsmen their works. Much more therefore is God removed from hating anything, seeing that He is cause of all.*
Hence it is said: Thou lovest all things that are, and hatest nothing of the things that Thou hast made (Wisd. xi, 25).
Some things however God is said, to hate figuratively (similitudinarie), and that in two ways. The first way is this, that God, in loving things and willing their good to be, wills their evil not to be: hence He is said to have hatred of evils, for the things we wish not to be we are said to hate. So it is said: Think no evil in your hearts every one of you against his friend, and love no lying oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord (Zach. viii, 17). But none of these things are effects of creation: they are not as subsistent things, to which hatred or love properly attaches. The other way is by God's wishing some greater good, which cannot be without the privation of a lesser good; and thus He is said to hate, whereas it is more properly love. Thus inasmuch as He wills the good of justice, or of the order of the universe, which cannot be without the punishment or perishing of some, He is said to hate those beings whose punishment or perishing He wills, according to the text, Esau I have hated (Malach. i, 3); and, Thou hatest all who work Iniquity, thou wilt destroy all who utter falsehood: the man of blood and deceit the Lord shall abominate (Ps. v, 7).*
Lets,face dear RN,the Calvinist view of God is closer to the muslim view of God with it's warped misunderstanding of wrath and hate attributed to God
“Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, if there be any praise, think on
these things.”
Phillipians 4:8
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