Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
That is correct!Without the Church telling us what is in the NT the following is an example of what the naysayers have as proof of the existence of scriptures..
Mere fragments like this....
little do some people realize when they are reading the Bible-it is a TRADITION they hope is from the ORIGINAL based upon what the Catholic Church says is based on the original. It's not because they ever seen the original since all we have is fragments
I'm really surprised at the shallowness of your "we won" rant.
An obscure poet is all you can find to compare with the obsessive "veneration" of Mary by your entire Church.
It is probably better you stick with your scholastic musings and away from substantial discussion.
"Obscure"???? Edmund Spenser is acknowledged to be one of the four greats of English literature, along with Chaucer, Shakespeare and Milton (though less popularly known). That particular passage is from the Dedication of The Faerie Queene, his greatest work. There's lots more of the same out there, plenty by obscure poets and plenty by not so obscure. Feel free to seek them out!
By your logic the Westboro idiots are good Baptists.
Was I long enough to qualify as a rant?
As for "shallow" it might be too early for your side to declare victory.
An obscure poet is all you can find to compare with the obsessive "veneration" of Mary by your entire Church.
He can scarcely be obscure enough to suit me, if that's his best "worke."
"Obsession"? My ENTIRE Church?
It seems to me the issue up 'til now was not how many were saying a thing, but what was the nature of the thing being said? Obscure pamphlets are not excused by their obscurity. But now, suddenly it's an election, one where the side with the greatest number of votes loses, a sort of force mineure?
It is probably better you stick with your scholastic musings and away from substantial discussion.
Was the pun intended or inadvertent? In either case, you went to the number of people saying a thing, a great mass of people, while I went to the quiddity of the thing being said. So I think my conversation is both substantial and scholastic. The charge has never been that many of us said a thing, but that the thing being said was wrong. Now it seems it is wrong when we say it, but less so when one of the others says it.
I have no idea what you mean by this. Granted, the words of consecration were spoken by Christ well before they were written, and it's those words that manifested, well, let's say the "New Covenant", since it's less confusing to use the distinct terms for distinct realities.
And that Church predates the Roman Catholic Church.
I'm well aware you disagree, but "that Church" is in fact what you refer to as "the Roman Catholic Church."
If your third "if" implies Jesus is physically present, flesh and blood, in the host your "if's" are untrue.
Thank goodness it implies no such thing. I have written, I guess, more than a thousand words herento say it is not a physical presence. Our teaching is that Jesus is substantially present, not physically. It's a pretty coherent teaching.
So was it the 'present' if you stopped at, or at another, or what?
Oops! I just dissed Spenser. Darn.
I guess I’ll have to read the Faerie Queen as penance.
Get real.
Dear metmom,
If Catholics care, that is the best thing for them.
Count me among them.
IIRC, you really liked that passage from the Mutabilitie Cantos (last unfinished book of FQ) when I quoted it on another thread . . . oh, last year some time! ;-)
Just a guess, but I'm thinking the A of C at the time wouldn't have said much against Spenser if Elizabeth liked him! And Elizabeth lapped that stuff up!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Faerie_Queene
The Faerie Queene
The Faerie Queene is an incomplete English epic poem by Edmund Spenser. The first half was published in 1590, and a second installment was published in 1596. The Faerie Queene is notable for its form: it was the first work written in Spenserian stanza and is one of the longest poems in the English language.[1] It is an allegorical work, written in praise of Queen Elizabeth I. Largely symbolic, the poem follows several knights in an examination of several virtues.
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How do you know hte religious affiliation of the author? The Protestant Reformation had just begun in GERMANY only a few decades before.
Besides, it’s an ALLEGORY. Nobody is worshiping Queen Elizabeth II.
If you have to go to those kinds of lengths to dig something up to use against Protestants, your case is far weaker than you could imagine.
I certainly hope you’re not a lawyer.
I find that if I were to think of this as somehow a transformation of those elements to Christ Himself somehow entering us then my focus would naturally go to the sense if or not that happened....
I'm not entirely sure I understand. First "transformation" and "sense". We keep insisting there is not a perceptible change, not "sensible", that is, not able to be sensed by the senses. The change is apprehended sola fide. It is believed. So yes, if one's faith was troubled, I suppose one's focus might shift.
... so therefore that solemn moment becomes self focused rather than on what those elements actually represent for us by what Christ did in taking away our very own sins. Of course if the problem is a weak faith, then a loss of focus on God and a distraction with focus on oneself is almost to be expected, isn't it? Isn't it by grace and faith that our focus is drawn to God?
I can only report for myself that I am not 'troubled' with wondering if Jesus is there. You could almost say I'm too busy talking and listening to Him to worry about stuff like that. Does that make sense?
I would say that the Mass, while not a 'work' in the sense that I get brownie points, is still 'work' in another way. It is, you might say, an exercise of the presence of God. We hear the Word proclaimed and a sermon. We pray for the Church and the world, which is our godly duty. The Prayer of Consecration is a shorter or longer 'recollection' of all the God has done for us in Christ, and a response of praise, prayer, and petition. Then there is the Lord's prayer, "the Peace" in which we greet those around us, and communion itself. So it's a celebration of the nearness of God: In Bible, in prayer, in one another, in sacrament. And, especially in a larger church, even if there are hymns and music, there is time to be alone and 'interior' with God.
I guess I kinda like it.
Oh! After writing all of the above claptrap, I wonder if I misunderstood you. I guess I can only respond that we have a very rich sense of remembrance. "I remember so well it's almost as if He were with me again -- no, he IS with me!"
I've said enough. Fire away.
Yes, of course, but also to be aware of being in union with the Church across the world and through time, in meeting the Eternal. Sort of a heightened consciousness. At least for me.
I know I'm not saying it very well. But I'm tired and about to turn in now.
Good night, all!
I think you’re right.
I think that was it.
Attacks on Dr E and I are SOP and probably as required as their STATIONS OF THE WHITE HANKY. Some of them act like they are as required as the Rosary.
Sheesh.
IT’S THE ATTACKS ON GREAT HEROS LIKE DR JESSE MARCEL JR that push my buttons. GRRRRR I see there’s still an ignorant continuing bunch of idiocy and denial ranting on about that issue. Guess I’m going to have to document the record since they can’t remember any responsibility for any of their skull duggary longer than a nanosecond.
No. My posts are not made to deliberately cause pain—unless you call intense confrontations with truth painful.
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