Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
You may wish to give chapter and verse - that apparently has been redacted from the Reformed Bible. Better yet, if you'd provide an online link, that might cover it. I use: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.shtml, but there are many who use the Douay-Rheims as well.
The Catholic Church has NEVER suggested that there is more than one Church.
To say that there are more than one would mean that our Lord lied.
No Catholic knocks Paul. St. Paul is considered to be, along with St. Peter the greatest of the Apostles. No, we venerate St. Paul. We reject the demiurge Paul constructed in the image of Mohammed with misunderstandings of Augustine thrown in by the thoroughly unChristian and heretic Calvin.
As do yours.
Your first sentence here makes a lie out of double predestination. Your second sentence does not take into account the power of God's Grace.
The Orthodox Churches are churches properly so called according to the Roman definition of the word "church". The term used for the Protestant denominations is "ecclesial communities". Here's the official explanation from the new Catechism, 838 is probably the relevant paragraph:
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?But if you go up a bit further you'll find this:
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
Wounds to unityIt's paragraphs 818 and 819 which drive us to drink sometimes.
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
837 talks about professing Catholics, 838 is primarily about the Orthodox... 818-819 is... hard. Where it talks about Churches we know it refers to the Orthodox and most Catholics don't have any trouble on that front. When it talks about "ecclesial communities" it's talking about Protestantism and ... well, the United States isn't the whole Church I suppose so when the Romans talk to a bunch of European Protestants they get all optimistic about things. Maybe if Ian Paisley were consulted they'd get a better idea of just what we're up against.
Nevertheless, that's what the Church teaches...
The arrogance on this thread is so unbelievable. As are the hysterical post directed to those who don’t bow before the Reformers.
Oh, really? What do you call this?
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.
Some are so blind that they are unable to see that they ARE NOT Christians, they a devotees of a distorted interpretation of Saint Paul's writings. Saint Peter warned that this would happen and is certainly has.
As I documented yesterday, it is not uncommon for these people to go months without hearing a single verse from the Gospels in church, but they ALWAYS hear what Saint Paul had to say.
The only logical conclusion is that they avoid the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ because what He said is in conflict with what they believe.
What hubris Calvinists display to claim to understand the infinite God.
Oh, last night was a doozy!
The Catholic Church knows that other Christian denominations have their beginnings with Luther who was Catholic. Those people will never admit that. They also ignore the history of Luther’s time.
I saw that. I was on a different thread where some of the usuals drifted over too. Same stuff... same day.
What am I missing bere? Catholics have been mocked and reviled more than once on this thread alone for calling things "Mysteries" -- we know and accept what the Church teaches about the Trinity, and the first thing she teaches is that it's a Mystery -- utterly inaccessible to human understanding. We know things about the Trinity; we do not claim to understand it. IIRC, it's a Protestant who claimed on this to "understand" the Incarnation, which the Church also teaches as a Mystery.
To us, a Mystery is not something irrational and fuzzy, rather something more and greater than rational, with an eternal clarity we cannot hope to encompass, though we can learn about them, gain some insight into them, be refreshed by them -- and never exhaust them.
BTW, it seems to be Protestants on this thread who are given to posts about what "God thinks" and "as God sees it," etc.
Really if you look at it, it is not really what Saint Paul had to say - it is phrases, incomplete verses, and out of context snippets of Paul's letters to his flock. No Gospel verses - they are for the Jews only. No words of Almighty God - they are the OT. No instructions from Jesus - they don't matter to the Reformed.
The only logical conclusion is that they avoid the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ because what He said is in conflict with what they believe.
Unquestionably. Reformed theology has more in common (with the exception of the terminology, but never the meaning) with Islam than it does with Christianity.
I do not agree with Luther leaving the Church (though I think he was pressured to for purely political reasons), but I certainly understand his reasons for posting the 95 Theses.
Pope Benedict spent many years studying Luther's writings and in 1976 he suggested that the Augsburg Confession could quite possibly be considered a Catholic document and if you read this you will see that the only possible exception would be regarding justification.
Had Protestantism followed the teachings of Luther, I think it's entirely possible that the Church would have been reunited centuries ago.
Thanks for noticing. That's because Protestants read the Bible to learn what God has revealed of Himself to men given eyes to see and ears to hear.
Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them. Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb. For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another." -- Isaiah 48:3-11"I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
Just look at all that God is telling us about how He thinks and what He sees.
lol. The first accurate correction by you of one of my posts.
Thanks.
You made a daffy accusation about some post by some reformed Christian somewhere, but apparently you don’t remember it nor can you substantiate that it even exists.
NEXT!!! (Soup Nazi)
It is not a church of grace and mercy, it is not the church of Jesus Christ, because if it was He died in vain
AMEN!
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