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To: CynicalBear

Because Heaven is a place of spiritual perfection, we will go to Purgatory when we die to do penance for any sins we still are guilty of. Once we’ve paid to the last penny, we’ll be ready to be with the saints and God in Heaven.

I believe Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for salvation; I am not assured that my faith is sufficient.

Clearly Judas believed in Jesus as the Messiah for a while. We know the devil entered him after he became an Apostle. It was all the way in Luke 22:3. So, at one time, he was “saved” but most scholars believe he probably lost his salvation through his later actions and loss of faith. According to your explanation, he was still “saved” because he had a conversion experience at one time... no matter what he did later.

The conversion moment is fleeting; a lifetime of faithful living from that moment on is what lasts and is worthy of eternity.

Your assertion that the person who thinks actions are required will have a tendency to think they are better than others is not accurate. In fact, those who think actions are also required are often teased about all their “Catholic guilt.”

I really think Christ was talking to Peter in Matthew 16: 23. He rebuked him and said he was a scandal to him because he cared more about his desires than God’s desire. Nowhere does he mention a spirit of any kind. He then tells Peter that if any man wants to follow Him, he must DENY himself (change his actions/stop sinning), take up his cross (again, an action) and follow Him. (More action.)

In Mark 8:33 it says Jesus threatened Peter and said the same thing. No spirit anywhere in that chapter.

Finally, St. Paul says in Philippians 2:12 “Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. Work out your salvation. He was talking to believers. Why did they need to work anything out further for salvation? Because works/actions were a necessary component. Why with fear and trembling? Because nothing is assured.

This makes perfect sense to me.


40 posted on 08/21/2010 10:43:01 PM PDT by Melian ("There is only one tragedy in the end, not to have been a saint." ~L. Bloy)
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To: Melian

“Because Heaven is a place of spiritual perfection, we will go to Purgatory when we die to do penance for any sins we still are guilty of. Once we’ve paid to the last penny, we’ll be ready to be with the saints and God in Heaven”

So YOU have to pay for your sins! Because when Jesus said “thy sins are forgiven” He meant only some of them? Only the ones you were thinking of? Only the ones prior to Him saying that? I don’t remember Him putting a qualifier on that statement.

I KNOW that Jesus paid for mine and when I die I will appear before the Father as if Jesus were standing there because I will be going “in Jesus name” as he told me to do. My sins have been forgiven!! I trust Jesus totally!!! He was the perfect sacrifice for MY sins.

I’m sorry you think that Jesus sacrifice wasn’t good enough for ALL our sins. You can’t have it both ways. He either paid the price totally or He didn’t and you have to “take up the slack” by somehow paying for the ones He missed.


41 posted on 08/22/2010 8:52:46 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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