curmudgeon -what is that the new word for late August and early September.

Exactly. That is why we call God Father, and we are his sons and daughters.

This statement that God and man are the same is a lie from satan.

Amen. One of the multitude of differences. Mormons are still trying to earn their salvation, whereas the Elect in Christ rely on the work of Jesus Christ.

Indeed! The NT is replete with examples where it is God who does the work in us, not us doing it. Works try to put God in our debt - I did X therefore God you owe me Y. Doesn't work in God's economy

I’m fully aware of what Joseph Smith taught regarding the origin of God. I’m also fully aware of what he taught regarding the potential of man — that we can become like God. I believe both principles.

I see who you are 'believing' alright!!

Genesis 3:4-6 (King James Version)

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It is deceiving to play that way with definitions - however it is necessary to prevent the unknowing from really discovering what they DO mean.

I think you are describing the "doctrine" of providing "milk" to the mark, and when the candidate has been sufficiently duped, then they get the "meat" where we discover "only begotten Son" really means that Jesus had a brother called Lucifer. How they explain away this is that the "Heavenly Father" allegedly is "the father of the spirits of all mankind", so Jesus and Lucifer are "spiritual sons".

The real disturbing thing is, the apologetics for the Jesus and Lucifer brotherhood is made by them from Acts 17:28-29. To the biblically ignorant, the quote "For we are also his offspring..." makes it sound like Paul agrees with the concept of "spriritual brotherhood". What the deceiver doesn't tell you (because they somehow deleted that phrase when quoting it to you) is the part where Paul, while speaking to the Greek idolators says about that quote "as also some of your own poets have said". That is, the quote from which the LDS tries to sell this garbage is by quoting Greek idolators concerning their relationship to gold, silver and stone idols. IOW, the LDS gets their doctrine straight from pagan idolators and they wish to attribute this to the Creator of the Universe. Utter blasphemy.

Its just demonic. I wish they would go back to the days not all that long ago when they distanced themselves from the name "Christian".

...but your doctrine says that you can be a god (a doctrine derived from Genesis 3:5).

Ahhhh...

You caught that too!

I think you are describing the "doctrine" of providing "milk" to the mark, and when the candidate has been sufficiently duped, then they get the "meat" . . .

Yes, that is one way of putting it. But it is a little different here where we are, shall we say - a little smarter than the average bear. By hiding behind those 'definitions', they are able to mentally deflect the question, rather than giving a thoughtful response to the question - at least in my experience.

The real disturbing thing is, the apologetics for the Jesus and Lucifer brotherhood is made by them from Acts 17:28-29.

Cults - particularly those trying to mimic Christianity - will always take the passage of scripture out of context to contort the meaning to fit their doctrinal twist. Throw in their own 'prophets' teaching and wa-la, their doctrine.

Its just demonic. I wish they would go back to the days not all that long ago when they distanced themselves from the name "Christian".

I wouldn't be too hasty on that aspect. The world is different today, and with the internet mormons are being exposed more and more to the false foundations of their faith. There are many here in the RF that are ex-mo's because they finally thought they'd prove us wrong - and end up with the Holy Spirit leading them to salvation in the TRUE Jesus. I prefer they keep trying - provides an object lesson for the lurkers reading the posts so that they won't become the easy 'mark' for the missionaries, knowing what they really mean.

I’ve worked on the World Congress of Families, where people of all conservative religions get together in defense of the family. Protestants of various denominations, Catholics, Mormons, Orthodox Jews, even Muslims. It scares the Left to death. Only someone who wanted to defeat social conservatism would try to discourage people of different faiths from working together on important political/moral issues. That’s why I seriously wonder whether some of the anti’s who make a career out of attacking both Mormons and Catholics on FR aren’t actually Leftist plants.

Oh, I get it. Lds general authorities like Bruce Hafen & Russell Nelson, & Nelson's wife, and CEO Deseret Exec Sheri Dew (& who knows what other Lds leaders) can come to the World Congress of Families & essentially try to do what Dew did...re: the title of one of her latest books...which ironically is called Saying It Like It Is...but if we come on just a forum like this one...and "Say It Like It Is" -- we're leftist plants???

Why do the Mormon leaders get pro-family forums to try to "Say It Like It Is" -- but you won't accord us the same vestige & privilege of freedom?

Still, how ironic is it that in the 1870s and 1880s Mormon leaders were bad-mouthing monogamy and how it was a lesser system because, they claimed, it contributed to prostitution, whereas, they claimed, a system of polygamy had no need for prostitution. And now, a mere 125-140 years later, you've got Lds general authorities like Bruce Hafen speaking at the World Congress of Families on titles like: Lovers Do Not Live for Themselves Alone: The Social Value of Traditional Marriage

(We're sure glad the Mormon god changes his social mind relatively quickly)

You can not reason with people who believe they will be a god.

Hi Theophilus,

It seems our discussions here often return to the same point:

The LDS doctrine of exaltation.

What is our relationship to God? We believe that he is the Father of our spirits and that he has prepared a way for us, as his children to progress to point that we can become like him.

The way that makes this possible is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. By accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior and by obeying the gospel we can be cleansed from sin, become resurrected and be able to return to the presence of God to inherit all that our merciful and gracious Father has to give his children — which is the ability to become like our Father.

That is LDS doctrine, and I don’t find it out of harmony with the Bible.

We believe that Jehovah is the pre-mortal Jesus. That it was Jesus who was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and who gave the law to Moses.

And we worship Jesus as our Savior and Redeemer.

How do you worship Jesus as Savior when in reality He is just one of the guys and you will be as He is someday if you follow all the rules.
It is a lie of satan that you will be someday be god.

John 3:16

We are lost without Jesus.

You believe in a welfare....

That is LDS doctrine, and I don’t find it out of harmony with the Bible.

I appreciate your concise, description of the LDS doctrine of exaltation. If I was in your place, I think I should be concerned as to why this doctrine has somehow managed to escape the Church for eighteen hundred years.

Since the earliest of times, orthodoxy places the cart and horse differently than LDS. Grace and sanctification pulls the cart of obedience and works. From what you posted here, the cart of works pushes the horse to move.

For the sake of the argument, lets say that I am both wrong (that is LDS teachings are correct) and that I also am a token representative of two thousand years of orthodoxy. Now I am leading my life, relying 100% on the work of Jesus Christ (Jn 19:30) rather than, as you say, "by [the causitive action] obeying the gospel we can [hypothetical contingency on our action] be cleansed from sin [indeterminate actor]". For eighteen centuries orthodox Christians have not synergistically at best, or primarily as (the initiating act) obeyed first to merit salvation. Rather, we have followed what we believe is the pattern of Scripture in that we are chosen by God (2 Thess 2:13) from eternity past (Eph 1:4-5) the Spirit acts first (Ps 51:10; Ez 36:26) to tear down the wall of enmity, which then draws us irresistably to love our LORD (Hos 11:4), the natural outflowing of this love is to engage in works of obedience and righteousness. (v27; Phil 2:12-13)

The difference here is, if we simply sought after God (Ro 3:11) and initiated good works (Isa 64:6) of obedience then we would please God (Ro 8:8) and "become like our Father" (Gen 3:5; Ezek 28:1-10; Isa 14:12-15). Now since no one before the prophet Joe Smith followed this pattern, and since the prophet claims that he received this from an angel (Gal 1:8-9), and we know angels are "messengers", and that messengers are sent, what must we say about the Father who hid these secrets for nearly two millennia, as hundreds of millions of people simply followed the talmud and apostolic letters and forfeited the "inheritance of our merciful and gracious Father"?

You believe in a welfare....

Praise God, you finally get it.

Eph 2:4-8 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

He who owns the cattle on a thousand hills, is so rich in blessings, grace and kindness, that I do not need to bring anything. In fact, it would be insulting to Him if I did. In the Parable of the Wedding Feast, the servants were told to "compel" the "bad and good, the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind" to attend. Did you catch that list? The bad? What does that do to your works-salvation soteriology? How about the poor and blind? What exactly do beggars have to bring to the wedding feast?

What should be a concern for those who are working under a complicated ad hoc system of quid pro quos with God, is "am I bringing enough to the table"? The prophet Isaiah says that our best works are comparable to menstral rags. I am pretty confident that I can't cash those in, so reliance should be fully on Christ.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not antinomian, and I agree with James that faith without works is dead. But I don't agree with Rome and the LDS in the matter in that, as you have stated before "must strive" in the obedience department. Rather, as Paul states seven chapters in to his Roman epistle, that our chief obstacle to achieving these ends is our own will. Only the insane can go against their own will, so the orthodox believer relies on the Spirit to transform our Will to be in accordance with God's. This process is called "mortifying the flesh" which is Church-speak for simply recognizing that the natural elements of ourselves still cares for the things of the world. This may seem like difference without a distinction, but there is one.

All religions outside orthodox Christianity, rely on some measure of legalism as a mechanism to please God. Orthodox Christianity says that "while we were yet sinners, Christ [loved] and died for us". So trying to please God, is not only impossible through our own actions, apparently it isn't even necessary since God receives Glory not from our self-originating works, but in the transformative work that He does in us.

A practical comparison would be when answering those who are resisting proseltyzing with a "but I don't want to give up ____". This is man's view of his relationship with God, and why LDS teachings don't depart from that carnal view of God. The only Mormons I know are pretty legalistic and are constantly belly-aching about the struggles with not watching R rated movies or not drinking, or some other vice that the Temple leadership adds to the list. In my personal experience, it isn't a matter of struggling with giving up vices, but through sanctification, I don't even want to do them. That is a monster difference. I believe that is the Freedom that comes in Christ, as we are no longer slaves to pr0n, drugs, filth, etc. So while the rank-and-file LDS "strives", I look forward to more edifying things (like wasting time Freeping).

So I will take that brand of welfare everytime it is offered. Especially since the "welfare" (in the Calvinistic view) was forced on me against my will in the first place.

So in your view dismissing the convenants is what Jesus wants you to do!

Keep my commandments was nothing more than lip services!

Interesting...

Gee why even bother coming to earth just skip probations sinse according to you there is no need to honron convenant, contract the meeting of two minds not necessary!

We are lost without Jesus.

(Allow me to run that through the Mormon translation machine: You see, the Mormon Jesus atoned for all, and almost all will thereby be resurrected to a degree of salvation, especially after all those proxy baptisms kick in. Hell? Greatly downplayed in Mormonism. Outer darkness gets more play in Mormonism than hell. And when Jesus said wide is the road leading to destruction & narrow the pathway leading to life, well, what does the Jesus of a frowned-upon Bible know to the average Mormon, anyway? So when a Mormon says, "We are lost without Jesus" he usually means that the atonement applied to all; almost all will be saved, anyway, even if they don't trust Him in this life...so a "relationship" with Jesus...what does that matter to Mormon theology? The rituals of the temple will get the Mormon to godhood and the non-Mormon to post-death salvation!).

By hiding behind those 'definitions', they are able to mentally deflect the question, rather than giving a thoughtful response to the question - at least in my experience.

Mormon words don't mean the same thing.

Anyone who tries to witness to a Mormon will soon find that the words they use do not always mean the same thing to Christians.

Below is a list of terms that are important for Christians to know when discussing the truth with Mormons.

It is important that you know what the Mormons mean by the same words used by Christians.

ADAM	LDS - Father of physical mankind. Adam is also known as Michael the archangel, the ancient of days, (D&C 116).	Bible - the first created man by whom all of humanity descends. He was not Michael the archangel.
ATONEMENT	LDS - The sacrifice of Christ that made resurrection possible along with the possibility of our earning forgiveness of sins.	Bible - The substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. He died for our sins (1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 2:2).
AARONIC PRIESTHOOD	LDS - A lesser priesthood in the LDS church. It is still used in LDS church practices and is held by the very young, (D&C 107:1, 6, 10).	Bible - A priesthood that is no longer necessary now that we have the full revelation of Christ.
BAPTISM	LDS - A necessary ordinance for salvation in the Mormon church. By it sins are washed away.	Bible - An ordinance of the Christian church that is not necessary for salvation (Rom. 5:1).
BIBLE	LDS - The Bible is correct only as far as it is correctly translated. It is basically trustworthy. It is the only one of the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) that is not considered infallible. The KJV is the official Bible of the LDS church.	Bible - the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16).
BISHOP	LDS - an office in the Melchizedek Priesthood of the LDS church. D&C 20:67),	Bible - An office held by a male member of the Church.
CELESTIAL HEAVEN	LDS - The highest of the three levels of heaven where faithful Mormons are exalted to Godhood.	Bible - There is no such thing as a celestial heaven.
CHURCH	LDS - The LDS church with its organizational structure, laws, and proper name.	Bible - The body of believers in the true and living God through Jesus. It is comprised of those who are redeemed and is not limited to an earthly structure.
DAMNATION	LDS - Basically, anything lesser than exaltation (becoming a God).	Bible - The state of condemnation, judged by God in eternal hell (Matt. 25:46).
DEVIL	LDS - See Satan.	Bible - See Satan.
ELOHIM	LDS - The name of God the Father.	Bible - The Hebrew word for "God." The name of God is "YHWH," which means "I AM," (Exodus 3:14).
ETERNAL LIFE	LDS - Exaltation (exaltation to a Mormon means obtaining Godhood) in the Celestial Kingdom.	Bible - Forgiveness of sins and life eternal with God (John 17:3; Rom. 6:23).
EXALTATION	LDS - The state of becoming a god in the celestial heaven.	Bible - There is no such thing as becoming a God in the Bible.
FALL OF MANKIND	LDS - A blessing (Mosiah 3: 11-16). A necessary step in the progression of humanity to the level of Godhood.	Bible - The open rebellion of Adam and Eve against God resulting in their condemnation and the fall of mankind.
GOD	LDS - One of countless gods in existence. An exalted man from another world who created the earth who's name is "Elohim." He became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on the other world. He has a body of flesh and bones. D&C 130: 22-23.	Bible - The one and only God in all the universe, (Isaiah 44:6,8).
GODHEAD	LDS - An office held by three separate Gods: the Father who is a god; Jesus who is a god; and the Holy Ghost who is a god.	Bible - God Himself, not an office. Three persons in one God. A Trinity: The Father; the Son; and the Holy Spirit.
GOSPEL	LDS - The laws and ordinances of the Mormon church.	Bible - The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of the sins of all who would trust in Him (1 Cor. 15:1-4).
HEAVEN	LDS - Divided into three Kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is for perfect Mormons, the Terrestrial is for moral people and lukewarm LDS, and the Telestial Kingdom is for everyone else.	Bible - The dwelling place of God (1 Kings 8:30). Christians go to heaven.
HELL	LDS - The temporary abode in the spirit world between death and resurrection for those awaiting telestial glory, (D&C 76: 84-85, 106). Hell will come to an end.	Bible - the eternal dwelling place of those who rejected the atoning work of Christ.
HOLY GHOST	LDS - "A spirit man. He can only be at one place at one time... " (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 359.) The Holy Ghost is contrasted with the Spirit of God, which is the influence of the Godhead that fills the immensity of space which enables God to know what is going on. It is likened to electricity." D&C 130: 22-23.	Bible - Third person of the Trinity. Same as Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4).
HOLY SPIRIT	LDS - The presence of God as distinguished from the Holy Ghost who is a god in the mormon trinity.	Bible - An equivalent term to Holy Ghost, third person in the Trinity.
JEHOVAH	LDS - The name of Jesus in the Old Testament.	Bible - The name of God is "YHWH," which means "I AM," (Exodus 3:14).
JESUS	LDS - Literal offspring of God the father. Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. Ordained as the Christ in the pre-existent Grand Council before coming to earth.	Bible - Jesus is God, second person of the Trinity (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).
KINGDOM OF GOD	LDS - Celestial heaven. The kingdom of God on earth is the LDS church.	Bible - All the believers of Christ (Matt. 13:41-43).
MARRIAGE	LDS - An eternal bonding of husband and wife that continues into the afterlife. These couples will continue to have children. (D&C 132:15-20).	Bible - the holy covenant between a man and a woman that is broken at death.
MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD	LDS - A greater priesthood in the LDS church held by elders, (D&C 107),	Bible - A priesthood held by Jesus alone.
PRE-EXISTENCE	LDS - We existed in heaven with God our (literal) Father and mother before we became human.	Bible - We did not exist before we came to earth (1 Cor. 15:46).
SALVATION	LDS - Two fold meaning: Simple bodily resurrection of all people. Also, forgiveness of sins.	Bible - Forgiveness of sins with the result of a present new life and in the future eternal life with God (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Rom. 6:23; 10:9-10).
SATAN	LDS - The opposer of God, literal son of God, brother of Jesus and all people begotten in the pre-existent spirit world.	Bible - A fallen angel who rebelled against God.
SCRIPTURE	LDS - Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price.	Bible - Only the Bible is scripture.
TEMPLE	LDS - A present day temple used to practice the ordinances and ceremonies of the gospel of the LDS church on behalf of the living as well as the dead.	Bible - The Old Testament building where God dwelt, sacrifices were offered, and holy priestly rites were administered. There is no longer a need for temples.
TRINITY	LDS- Three gods: a god called the Father; a god called the son; a god called the Holy Ghost.	Bible - The one and only God in all existence who is comprised of three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. See Trinity.

Go to http://scriptures.lds.org/bd/contents for a list of Mormon words and definitions produced by the LDS church.