A Latter-day Saint Perspective on Muhammad Mormon-(OPEN)

Amazing how dense some are.

That's because these foul ANTI's are becoming all CONFOUNDED!!!

^{Keep the pressure on, Blue Moose and Resty! We got 'em on the ropes!!}⁾

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 71

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, December 1, 1831. HC 1: 238–239. The Prophet had continued to translate the Bible with Sidney Rigdon as his scribe until this revelation was received, at which time it was temporarily laid aside so as to enable them to fulfill the instruction given herein. The brethren were to go forth to preach in order to allay the unfriendly feelings that had developed against the Church as a result of the publication of some newspaper articles by Ezra Booth, who had apostatized.

1–4, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are sent forth to proclaim the gospel; 5–11, Enemies of the saints shall be confounded.

1 Behold, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, that the time has verily come that it is necessary and expedient in me that you should open your mouths in ^aproclaiming my gospel, the things of the kingdom, expounding the ^bmysteries thereof out of the scriptures, according to that portion of Spirit and power which shall be given unto you, even as I will.

2 Verily I say unto you, proclaim unto the world in the regions round about, and in the church also, for the space of a season, even until it shall be ^amade known unto you.

3 Verily this is a mission for a season, which I give unto you.

4 Wherefore, ^alabor ye in my vineyard. Call upon the inhabitants of the earth, and bear record, and prepare the way for the commandments and revelations which are to come.

5 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him ^aunderstand and ^breceive also;

6 For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more ^aabundantly, even power.

7 Wherefore, ^aconfound your ^benemies; call upon them to ^cmeet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their ^dshame shall be made manifest.

8 Wherefore, let them bring forth their ^astrong reasons against the Lord.

9 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no ^aweapon that is formed against you shall prosper;

10 And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be ^aconfounded in mine own due time.

11 Wherefore, ^akeep my commandments; they are true and faithful. Even so. Amen.

I just don’t know what can be said.

We've noticed...

I just don’t know what can be said.

In case you don't recognize the title of this post, it is part of President Hinckley's answer to a reporter's question that appeared in the August 4 1997 issue of Time magazine. The reporter referenced the King Follett discourse. The answer supplied and the manner in which it was delivered caused the reporter to draw some false conclusions about a very important doctrine.

In that discourse, the prophet Joseph Smith said, "If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man." (See also D&C 130:22)

The article referred to Lorenzo Snow's couplet, "As man is now, God once was; as God now is, man may become." The reporter said, "God the Father was once a man as we are. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing." President Hinckley was then asked, "Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?"

The bothersome reply

"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it."

The reporter wrote, "On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain." That's an unfortunate conclusion. Of course I wasn't at the interview and neither were you but I'll bet the reporter mistook careful thoughtfulness for uncertainty. This doctrine is indeed deep territory and not something that is taught outside the LDS Church.

An earlier and similar interview

The San Francisco Chronicle, published an interview with President Hinckley in April of 1997. The reporter asked, "There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don't Mormon's believe that God was once a man?" President Hinckley responded, "I wouldn't say that. There is a little couplet coined, 'As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'"

He then said, "Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about." The reporter pounced on this. "So you're saying that the church is still struggling to understand this? " President Hinckley responded, "Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly."

President Hinckley's response

President Hinckley said in October 1997 General Conference: "I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that's to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine.

"I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church." And there lies the whole point of my post today. Some members did indeed become a little concerned by the exchanges they read in the press reports of those interviews.

Does the Church still teach this?

I know this is old news but it still bothers some people when they discover the anti-Mormon attacks floating around on the Internet. President Hinckley was right. We really don't know much about how our Heavenly Father became a God. The idea that he passed through a mortal probationary state like you and me is certainly not documented in any scripture of which I know.

However, it is still taught. In the Gospel Principles manual in the chapter on exaltation we read, "Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46)."

Summary and conclusion

I don't know why this should bother anyone. The doctrine is true. Joseph Smith knew a whole lot more about this than I do. President Hinckley also knew a whole lot more about this doctrine than he was willing to share with reporters who did not have the background to understand it. It must have been difficult for President Hinckley to hold back and not teach it in those interviews.

It didn't bother me when I read the interviews back in 1997 and it doesn't bother me today. However, I know it does bother some people. We each have trials of our faith. I have never depended on an intellectual understanding of the gospel in order to accept it and live it. There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith.

There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith.

End of ELSIEthon!

YAWN

Well the weekend is over. I see the Anti-Mormon (ism for Sz) crowd is still parroting the same old crap. Old and addressed. Covered time and again.

Undecided readers,

As an ex Mormon-basher, I invite everyone to read all of the multitude of Anti-Mormon (ism) attack threads and/or comments on this board and then do some research on your own from more than one side of the “issues”.

Is what all these Mormon attack squad people parrot day in and and day out on these boards entirely true? Don’t take their word for it. Find out for yourself. Put forth some effort. You do want the truth right? Prove it.

Read both sides! Talk to both sides! Not just mine. Not just theirs. Make up your own mind.

Here’s a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. The vast majority of the issues brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ I have found but here’s more.

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

Just a little. It was a convenient bit of LDS info for my purposes.

Nothing like the courage of ones convictions...

Especially when you are the leader of the faith...

Well the weekend is over. I see the Anti-Mormon (ism for Sz) crowd is still parroting the same old crap. Old and addressed. Covered time and again.

You next project...

Provide links to where this has occurred.

The only thing covered time and again is that the LDS CANNOT answer for their own doctrine, something I can demonstrate simply by directing readers to the past three LDS threads here on FR including this one.

It would be fun to actually have that occur for a change, though in reality it is impossible. Lies cannot be willed into truth.

Meanwhile I will enjoy the subtle irony of you coming out of the gate at us so called "anti-mormons" whilst posting links directly to our best resources in showing the LDS is a scam.

"Amazing how dense some are."

So, since you appear to have all the answers, answer the following if you are all knowing as you portend to be.

How many gods are there Resty? If all the mormons are "heirs", then how many gods? That is what you appear to be saying, is that you all get to earn your godhood (oops! men only, women, you have to pray your man calls you in.).

So, based on all of the temple work the mormons have done, based on all the records and membership numbers, someone should have a good round number to give us about the estimated number of gods, right?

Here is what Paul says: “The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him in order that we may be glorified with him” (Romans 8:16-17).

What Paul says is that we can become glorified like Christ, not exalted like Heavenly Father. There is a big difference. To become glorified like Christ means to become perfect human beings bearing the image of God as exemplified in his Son Jesus Christ, resurrected to perfect, immortal life (Romans 8:18-29). What Mormons mean by becoming exalted like Heavenly Father is becoming a God—something that will never happen (Isaiah 43:10).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/u/IRR?q=cache:jwNFF1rge-wJ:www.irr.org/mit/GP-BSG-7-Holy-Spirit.html+heirs&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&ie=UTF-8

Now, from what I've learned, mormons believe we are the literal spirit offspring of god and heavenly mother. Hence, we are not "adopted" as the Bible teaches in Galatians and Romans.

Romans 8:

"14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, [Notice, "led by the Spirit of God", not by lineage or "birthright" do we become sons of God], they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

[Abba is a term of endearment and closeness, similar to "daddy.]

"16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: [Notice that "with our spirit", not by lineage, but by spirit we are "children of God.]

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.[That we are heirs to being glorified with Christ, not heirs to godhood.]

So, will this be dismissed as being one of those areas of the Bible "not translated correctly" because it contradicts LdS teachings/beliefs?

Red herring. We have muslim service members as well.

What does the military (a personal choice) have to do with their (mormon) leadership in SLC siding with islam?

Fun ! I typed the word Trinity in that search engine...didn’t appear either...intriguing !...magritte

Then you obviously haven't been talking to the ones on FR.

You do know that Mormons are over represented in the US military?

Been debumked a dozen times on FR, if you have non lds status that are different provide them.

It is lds themselves that compare lds to muslim. Read any lds owned news-press, or blogg.

Seriously, pay attention.

Seriously Z, trying to get rational thought from lds.

The mormons are back at playing the "change the thread subject" again. I suggest you ignore the little games played by Fred and stop replying. He perfected this in his earlier incarnation, so don't let the name change lead you astray.

I find it very interesting that posting about the mormons courting of muslims is a sore spot, since the mormon church does a lot of boasting about the connection.

Run a search for "muslim" at mormontimes.com. Link ...showing 100 results. Samples of these articles are:

"Islam is not the only faith that stresses modesty in women's dress. Eternity, a national designer of modest eveningwear, for example, sells long-sleeved, high-necked "temple-ready" gowns for Mormon brides as well as a white bridal hijab."

Tasteful but trendy

"The Islamic and Latter-day Saint faiths are quite interconnected, Kosorok said, giving as one example the forum address at BYU in 2006 by Dr. Alwi Shihab, "Building Bridges of Understanding: The Church and the World of Islam." (speeches.byu.edu)

Shihab was introduced by President Boyd K. Packer of the LDS Church's Quorum of the Twelve who said Mormons and Muslims are "knit together" as "people of the Book."

BYU professor sculpts glass to build bridges between LDS, Islam

""BYU's Middle Eastern Texts Initiative has published 16 works — including Islamic works, Eastern Christian texts and a series of works by Jewish rabbi Moses Maimonides. "Physics" is the seventh volume in the Islamic Translation Series of this initiative.

The publication of Avicenna's work is "an acknowledgment of the great contributions Arabic and Islamic civilization have made to the world," Peterson said. "It is an expression of respect for Muslim tradition on the part of Latter-day Saints."

BYU publishes classic text written by Islamic philosopher

"Rabbi Rosen, director of the American Jewish Committee's Department for Interreligious Affairs, said helping the United States push forward to mediate the Israel/Palestine conflict would be in the LDS Church's interest not only because of what it would mean for its religion but also because of BYU's Jerusalem Center, where Rabbi Rosen himself taught several years ago.

Make LDS part of Mideast solution, rabbi suggests

As one who actually has a psych degree I can tell you I am neither paranoid or delusional, however one who continues to bring that up usually is.
You really need to try and change your writing style, it is identical to two other FR names.

“You see, we have different interpretations.

No. YOU have “an interpretation”. I am reading what is actually there (and seeing what isn’t there!). It says nothing about becoming a god.

“To me,”

And that is the problem! It doesn’t matter what YOU think. It matters what it says. This isn’t a celestial Easter Egg Hunt to find the hidden meanings. God doesn’t stutter.

“...an heir inherits all that belongs to a father.”

You would be wrong legally and Biblically!

“And a joint-heir with Christ, mean that what Christ has, the joint heirs have also.”

You ASSUME this is what it means. You would be wrong.

best,
ampu

You would think that when the lds use several screen names they would change their writing style. They are so obvious.

“Yet, they claim to worship ONE god that happens to have TWO physical bodies, and say that THAT makes PERFECT sense!!”

Heck! They have three gods here - only one that doesn’t have a body because he was naughty.

They also have at least one Mother God! That’s at least 4 Gods right there!

Welcome to Bizzaro World where up is down...

Ok, I give I am anti-margritte mormon.

Dear Mr. Paragon Defender,

Thank you for standing against all the posters here who are so anti-mormonisms!!!!

They oppose the deeper truths of mormonic teaching - the restoration of Christian things, like polytheism and gods who have celestial s*x. Joseph Smith and the Quoroms of the 12 will surely put them under their thumb in eternity when they become gods themselves!! And they'll deserve what they get!!!

I still so much want to become a mormonisms god myself. But your links do not say what you believe very clearly. Really, I read them all.

For instance, are you, yourself, a mormonisms god yet?

Which powers do you have now? Must you wear the sacred underwears with the secret codes to manifest the powers? If they were in the laundry one day, would you still have your god-powers, Mr. Paragon? If you ever take them off, will you lose the chance to become a mormonisms god or goddess?

Also, you did not give me a link for the mormon celestial s*x. I so want to learn about this deeper secrets of Mormonisms.

It seems confusing that all your gods have bodies and that they can have celestial s*x. I don't know of any Christian God who does this???? THat is why I think the mormonisms religioins must be the truest one. It sounds like the Greek religions where the gods will go to war and have cool kids and stuff!! I like that for shure!

This is what your religion teaches, isn't it Mr. Paragon Defender???? That once you become a mormonisms's god, you will reproduce physically, but the babies won't have bodies like their parent gods? How can that be Mr. Paragon? Why wouldn't they be like their parents?

If you don't mind my asking you, will yu have more than one goddess wife? I read you can get lots!!! Do you have to do any special spells or rituals to get multiple goddesses wives?

Thank you for sharing. There is so much no one else will tell us.

Very thankfully,

A More Perfect Unions

PS - I am canadian, remember? Do I have to do the tithe in US currency to get the extra goddesses wives?