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To: Mad Dawg
As far as I'm concerned the theologically tricky part is to preserve the metaphysical distinction between creature and Creator after the Incarnation and Resurrection. I'm confident that there is one and that it's important. We will always be beneficiaries, we will never be sources. All Glory is God's but as optical fibers, lenses, mirrors, prisms, we reflect, refract, turn and, finally return that glory. When you start out with God the Son of God giving up everything to share His life with us, you end up with some pretty amazing promises. It's all about the overflowing.

Ahhh, my friend you do have a way with words. I have no doubt whatsoever that you have your noggin on straight about this. My problem is not with you or anyone else who thinks of Mary in precisely this way. You do very well in separating your terms.

I am reasonably sure that no true Christian would balk at all with acknowledging the title for Mary as "Mother of the Incarnate Word". That the council met to overcome confusion about the nature of Jesus Christ is admirable. I just think they may have gone a little too far. Many paragraphs were consumed in describing the best they could the divine and human natures of our Savior. I think they did pretty good. I think it was "over-kill" to designate Mary as "The Mother of God". Not only did they make that a dogmatic statement, but they said anyone who did not accept it could "Go to Hell." - LITERALLY!

I greatly appreciate your scholarship, but the average 'Joe" or 'Jane'...not so much. They hear "Mother of God and you have to believe it without question" and it leads to what has undeniably turned into a type of "goddess" worship. Not all, I know, but many have taken it that way. When I see statues, and paintings, and special prayers, and glorious titles and attributes, I cringe. It has the appearance of false idol worship. You have people dedicating their lives to her and pretty much ignoring the one who deserves all the glory and worship, honor and praise.

Lest some think I disparage her in any way, let me say I think she is a wonderful role model of faith, humility, surrendering to God's will and trusting in him regardless of the cost. She should be admired and I don't know of anyone who has ever said different. Again, I know you have the right perspective, because you have explained it very well I just worry about others who don't quite "get" it and misplace their devotion. It is between them and the Lord, ultimately, and anyone who is diligently searching for truth will come to it eventually, I just try to help where I can.

5,790 posted on 08/02/2010 7:57:40 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums

I’m going to say just this in debate:

“Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds.”

IMHO the closer we get to the accurate presentation or account, the clearer it becomoes that deviations therefrom are calamities.

Thank you for being my friend.

I’m just SEW broken up that you’re going to hell for disagreeing with me. .... hee hee hee!


5,825 posted on 08/02/2010 8:53:09 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee. here)
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To: boatbums; MarkBsnr; Mad Dawg; Jvette; narses; NYer; don-o
“I am reasonably sure that no true Christian would balk at all with acknowledging the title for Mary as “Mother of the Incarnate Word”. That the council met to overcome confusion about the nature of Jesus Christ is admirable. I just think they may have gone a little too far.”

___________________________________________________________________________
On the contrary, they had to “go that far”. They understood the grave threat that the heretic Nestorious presented to the unity of the Church.

Here is an excerpt (lengthy, I'm sorry) from one of the best articles I've ever read on the whole controversy, and it explains the reason for the definition. I hope you will find it useful in your search for truth:

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc1.htm

As Catholics, we firmly believe in the incarnation of our Lord: Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. (Lk 1:26-38 and Mt 1:18-25) Through her, Jesus Christ—second person of the Holy Trinity, one-in-being (consubstantial) with the Father, and true God from true God—entered this world, taking on human flesh and a human soul. Jesus is true God and true man. In His person are united both a divine nature and a human nature.

Mary did not create the divine person of Jesus, who existed with the Father from all eternity. “In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly ‘Mother of God’ (Theotokos)” (CCC, No. 495). As St. John wrote, “The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us, and we have seen His glory: The glory of an only Son coming from the Father filled with enduring love” (Jn 1:14).

For this reason, sometime in the early history of the Church, our Blessed Mother was given the title “Mother of God.” St. John Chrysostom (d. 407), for example, composed in his Eucharistic Prayer for the Mass an anthem in honor of her: “It is truly just to proclaim you blessed, O Mother of God, who are most blessed, all pure and Mother of our God. We magnify you who are more honorable than the Cherubim and incomparably more glorious than the Seraphim. You who, without losing your virginity, gave birth to the Word of God. You who are truly the Mother of God.”

However, objection to the title “Mother of God” arose in the fifth century, due to confusion concerning the mystery of the incarnation. Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople (428-431), incited a major controversy. He stated that Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, a regular human person, period. To this human person was united the person of the Word of God (the divine Jesus). This union of two persons—the human Christ and the divine Word— was “sublime and unique” but merely accidental. The divine person dwelt in the human person “as in a temple.” Following his own reasoning, Nestorius asserted that the human Jesus died on the cross, not the divine Jesus. As such, Mary is not “Mother of God,” but simply “Mother of Christ”—the human Jesus. Sound confusing? It is, but the result is the splitting of Christ into two persons and the denial of the incarnation.

St. Cyril, Bishop of Alexandria (d. 440) refuted Nestorius, asserting, “It was not that an ordinary man was born first of the Holy Virgin, on whom afterwards the Word descended; what we say is that, being united with the flesh from the womb, (the Word) has undergone birth in the flesh, making the birth in the flesh His own...” This statement affirms the belief asserted in the first paragraph.

On June 22, 431, the Council of Ephesus convened to settle this argument. The Council declared, “If anyone does not confess that the Emmanuel is truly God and therefore that the holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos) (since she begot according to the flesh the Word of God made flesh), anathema sit.” Therefore, the Council officially recognized that Jesus is one person, with two natures—human and divine—united in a true union. Second, Ephesus affirmed that our Blessed Mother can rightfully be called the Mother of God. Mary is not Mother of God, the Father, or Mother of God, the Holy Spirit; rather, she is Mother of God, the Son—Jesus Christ. The Council of Ephesus declared Nestorius a heretic, and the Emperor Theodosius ordered him deposed and exiled. (Interestingly, a small Nestorian Church still exists in Iraq, Iran and Syria.)

The incarnation is indeed a profound mystery. The Church uses very precise—albeit philosophical—language to prevent confusion and error.

5,838 posted on 08/02/2010 9:12:32 PM PDT by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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