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Testimony of a Former Irish Priest
BereanBeacon.Org ^ | Richard Peter Bennett

Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

The Early Years

Born Irish, in a family of eight, my early childhood was fulfilled and happy. My father was a colonel in the Irish Army until he retired when I was about nine. As a family, we loved to play, sing, and act, all within a military camp in Dublin.

We were a typical Irish Roman Catholic family. My father sometimes knelt down to pray at his bedside in a solemn manner. My mother would talk to Jesus while sewing, washing dishes, or even smoking a cigarette. Most evenings we would kneel in the living room to say the Rosary together. No one ever missed Mass on Sundays unless he was seriously ill. By the time I was about five or six years of age, Jesus Christ was a very real person to me, but so also were Mary and the saints. I can identify easily with others in traditional Catholic nations in Europe and with Hispanics and Filipinos who put Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and other saints all in one boiling pot of faith.

The catechism was drilled into me at the Jesuit School of Belvedere, where I had all my elementary and secondary education. Like every boy who studies under the Jesuits, I could recite before the age of ten five reasons why God existed and why the Pope was head of the only true Church. Getting souls out of Purgatory was a serious matter. The often quoted words, "It is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins," were memorized even though we did not know what these words meant. We were told that the Pope as head of the Church was the most important man on earth. What he said was law, and the Jesuits were his right-hand men. Even though the Mass was in Latin, I tried to attend daily because I was intrigued by the deep sense of mystery which surrounded it. We were told it was the most important way to please God. Praying to saints was encouraged, and we had patron saints for most aspects of life. I did not make a practise of that, with one exception: St. Anthony, the patron of lost objects, since I seemed to lose so many things.

When I was fourteen years old, I sensed a call to be a missionary. This call, however, did not affect the way in which I conducted my life at that time. Age sixteen to eighteen were the most fulfilled and enjoyable years a youth could have. During this time, I did quite well both academically and athletically.

I often had to drive my mother to the hospital for treatments. While waiting for her, I found quoted in a book these verses from Mark 10:29-30, "And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life." Not having any idea of the true salvation message, I decided that I truly did have a call to be a missionary.

Trying To Earn Salvation I left my family and friends in 1956 to join the Dominican Order. I spent eight years studying what it is to be a monk, the traditions of the Church, philosophy, the theology of Thomas Aquinas, and some of the Bible from a Catholic standpoint. Whatever personal faith I had was institutionalized and ritualized in the Dominican religious system. Obedience to the law, both Church and Dominican, was put before me as the means of sanctification. I often spoke to Ambrose Duffy, our Master of Students, about the law being the means of becoming holy. In addition to becoming "holy," I wanted also to be sure of eternal salvation. I memorized part of the teaching of Pope Pius XII in which he said, "...the salvation of many depends on the prayers and sacrifices of the mystical body of Christ offered for this intention." This idea of gaining salvation through suffering and prayer is also the basic message of Fatima and Lourdes, and I sought to win my own salvation as well as the salvation of others by such suffering and prayer.

In the Dominican monastery in Tallaght, Dublin, I performed many difficult feats to win souls, such as taking cold showers in the middle of winter and beating my back with a small steel chain. The Master of Students knew what I was doing, his own austere life being part of the inspiration that I had received from the Pope's words. With rigor and determination, I studied, prayed, did penance, tried to keep the Ten Commandments and the multitude of Dominican rules and traditions.

Outward Pomp -- Inner Emptiness

Then in 1963 at the age of twenty-five I was ordained a Roman Catholic priest and went on to finish my course of studies of Thomas Aquinas at The Angelicum University in Rome. But there I had difficulty with both the outward pomp and the inner emptiness. Over the years I had formed, from pictures and books, pictures in my mind of the Holy See and the Holy City. Could this be the same city? At the Angelicum University I was also shocked that hundreds of others who poured into our morning classes seemed quite disinterested in theology. I noticed Time and Newsweek magazines being read during classes. Those who were interested in what was being taught seemed only to be looking for either degrees or positions within the Catholic Church in their homelands.

One day I went for a walk in the Colosseum so that my feet might tread the ground where the blood of so many Christians had been poured out. I walked to the arena in the Forum. I tried to picture in my mind those men and women who knew Christ so well that they were joyfully willing to be burned at the stake or devoured alive by beasts because of His overpowering love. The joy of this experience was marred, however, for as I went back in the bus I was insulted by jeering youths shouting words meaning "scum or garbage." I sensed their motivation for such insults was not because I stood for Christ as the early Christians did but because they saw in me the Roman Catholic system. Quickly, I put this contrast out of my mind, yet what I had been taught about the present glories of Rome now seemed very irrelevant and empty.

One night soon after that, I prayed for two hours in front of the main altar in the church of San Clemente. Remembering my earlier youthful call to be a missionary and the hundredfold promise of Mark 10:29-30, I decided not to take the theological degree that had been my ambition since beginning study of the theology of Thomas Aquinas. This was a major decision, but after long prayer I was sure I had decided correctly.

The priest who was to direct my thesis did not want to accept my decision. In order to make the degree easier, he offered me a thesis written several years earlier. He said I could useit as my own if only I would do the oral defense. This turned my stomach. It was similar to what I had seen a few weeks earlier in a city park: elegant prostitutes parading themselves in their black leather boots. What he was offering was equally sinful. I held to my decision, finishing at the University at the ordinary academic level, without the degree.

On returning from Rome, I received official word that I had been assigned to do a three year course at Cork University. I prayed earnestly about my missionary call. To my surprise, I received orders in late August 1964 to go to Trinidad, West Indies, as a missionary.

Pride, Fall, And A New Hunger

On October 1, 1964, I arrived in Trinidad, and for seven years I was a successful priest, in Roman Catholic terms, doing all my duties and getting many people to come to Mass. By 1972 I had become quite involved in the Catholic Charismatic Movement. Then, at a prayer meeting on March 16th of that year, I thanked the Lord that I was such a good priest and requested that if it were His will, He humble me that I might be even better. Later that same evening I had a freak accident, splitting the back of my head and hurting my spine in many places. Without thus coming close to death, I doubt that I would ever have gotten out of my self- satisfied state. Rote, set prayer showed its emptiness as I cried out to God in my pain.

In the suffering that I went through in the weeks after the accident, I began to find some comfort in direct personal prayer. I stopped saying the Breviary (the Roman Catholic Church's official prayer for clergy) and the Rosary and began to pray using parts of the Bible itself. This was a very slow process. I did not know my way through the Bible and the little I had learned over the years had taught me more to distrust it rather than to trust it. My training in philosophy and in the theology of Thomas Aquinas left me helpless, so that coming into the Bible now to find the Lord was like going into a huge dark woods without a map.

When assigned to a new parish later that year, I found that I was to work side-by-side with a Dominican priest who had been a brother to me over the years. For more than two years we were to work together, fully seeking God as best we knew in the parish of Pointe-a-Pierre. We read, studied, prayed, and put into practise what we had been taught in Church teaching. We built up communities in Gasparillo, Claxton Bay, and Marabella, just to mention the main villages. In a Catholic religious sense we were very successful. Many people attended Mass. The Catechism was taught in many schools, including government schools. I continued my personal search into the Bible, but it did not much affect the work we were doing; rather it showed me how little I really knew about the Lord and His Word. It was at this time that Philippians 3:10 became the cry of my heart, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection...."

About this time the Catholic Charismatic movement was growing, and we introduced it into most of our villages. Because of this movement, some Canadian Christians came to Trinidad to share with us. I learned much from their messages, especially about praying for healing. The whole impact of what they said was very experience-oriented but was truly a blessing, insofar, as it got me deeply into the Bible as an authority source. I began to compare scripture with scripture and even to quote chapter and verse! One of the texts the Canadians used was Isaiah 53:5, "...and with his stripes we are healed." Yet in studying Isaiah 53, I discovered that the Bible deals with the problem of sin by means of substitution. Christ died in my place. It was wrong for me to try to expidite or try to cooperate in paying the price of my sin.

"If by grace, it is no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace.." Romans 11:6. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6).

One particular sin of mine was getting annoyed with people, sometimes even angry. Although I asked forgiveness for my sins, I still did not realize that I was a sinner by the nature which we all inherit from Adam. The scriptural truth is, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10), and "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). The Catholic Church, however, had taught me that the depravity of man, which is called "original sin," had been washed away by my infant baptism. I still held this belief in my head, but in my heart I knew that my depraved nature had not yet been conquered by Christ.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection..." (Philippians 3:10) continued to be the cry of my heart. I knew that it could be only through His power that I could live the Christian life. I posted this text on the dashboard of my car and in other places. It became the plea that motivated me, and the Lord who is Faithful began to answer.

The Ultimate Question

First, I discovered that God's Word in the Bible is absolute and without error. I had been taught that the Word is relative and that its truthfulness in many areas was to be questioned. Now I began to understand that the Bible could, in fact, be trusted. With the aid of Strong's Concordance, I began to study the Bible to see what it says about itself. I discovered that the Bible teaches clearly that it is from God and is absolute in what it says. It is true in its history, in the promises God has made, in its prophecies, in the moral commands it gives, and in how to live the Christian life. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (II Timothy 3:16-17).

This discovery was made while visiting in Vancouver, B.C., and in Seattle. When I was asked to talk to the prayer group in St. Stephen's Catholic Church, I took as my subject the absolute authority of God's Word. It was the first time that I had understood such a truth or talked about it. I returned to Vancouver, B.C. and in a large parish Church, before about 400 people, I preached the same message. Bible in hand, I proclaimed that "the absolute and final authority in all matters of faith and morals is the Bible, God's own Word."

Three days later, the archbishop of Vancouver, B.C., James Carney, called me to his office. I was then officially silenced and forbidden to preach in his archdiocese. I was told that my punishment would have been more severe, were it not for the letter of recommendation I had received from my own archbishop, Anthony Pantin. Soon afterwards I returned to Trinidad.

Church-Bible Dilemma

While I was still parish priest of Point-a-Pierre, Ambrose Duffy, the man who had so strictly taught me while he was Student Master, was asked to assist me. The tide had turned. After some initial difficulties, we became close friends. I shared with him what I was discovering. He listened and commented with great interest and wanted to find out what was motivating me. I saw in him a channel to my Dominican brothers and even to those in the Archbishop's house.

When he died suddenly of a heart attack, I was stricken with grief. In my mind, I had seen Ambrose as the one who could make sense out of the Church-Bible dilemma with which I so struggled. I had hoped that he would have been able to explain to me and then to my Dominican brothers the truths with which I wrestled. I preached at his funeral and my despair was very deep.

I continued to pray Philippians 3:10, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection...." But to learn more about Him, I had first to learn about myself as a sinner. I saw from the Bible (I Timothy 2:5) that the role I was playing as a priestly mediator -- exactly what the Catholic Church teaches but exactly opposite to what the Bible teaches -- was wrong. I really enjoyed being looked up to by the people and, in a certain sense, being idolized by them. I rationalized my sin by saying that after all, if this is what the biggest Church in the world teaches, who am I to question it? Still, I struggled with the conflict within. I began to see the worship of Mary, the saints, and the priests for the sin that it is. But while I was willing to renounce Mary and the saints as mediators, I could not renounce the priesthood, for in that I had invested my whole life.

Tug-Of-War Years

Mary, the saints, and the priesthood were just a small part of the huge struggle with which I was working. Who was Lord of my life, Jesus Christ in His Word or the Roman Church? This ultimate question raged inside me especially during my last six years as parish priest of Sangre Grande (1979-1985). That the Catholic Church was supreme in all matters of faith and morals had been dyed into my brain since I was a child. It looked impossible ever to change.

Rome was not only supreme but always called "Holy Mother." How could I ever go against "Holy Mother," all the more so since I had an official part in dispensing her sacraments and keeping people faithful to her? In 1981, I actually rededicated myself to serving the Roman Catholic Church while attending a parish renewal seminar in New Orleans. Yet when I returned to Trinidad and again became involved in real life problems, I began to return to the authority of God's Word. Finally the tension became like a tug-of-war inside me. Sometimes I looked to the Roman Church as being absolute, sometimes to the authority of the Bible as being final. My stomach suffered much during those years; my emotions were being torn. I ought to have known the simple truth that one cannot serve two masters. My working position was to place the absolute authority of the Word of God under the supreme authority of the Roman Church.

This contradiction was symbolized in what I did with the four statues in the Sangre Grande Church. I removed and broke the statues of St. Francis and St. Martin because the second commandment of God's Law declares in Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image...." But when some of the people objected to my removal of the statues of the Sacred Heart and of Mary, I left them standing because the higher authority, i.e., the Roman Catholic Church, said in its law Canon 1188: "The practise of displaying sacred images in the churches for the veneration of the faithful is to remain in force."

I did not see that what I was trying to do was to make God's Word subject to man's word. My Own Fault While I had learned earlier that God's Word is absolute, I still went through this agony of trying to maintain the Roman Catholic Church as holding more authority than God's Word, even in issues where the Church of Rome was saying the exact opposite to what was in the Bible.

How could this be? First of all, it was my own fault. If I had accepted the authority of the Bible as supreme, I would have been convicted by God's Word to give up my priestly role as mediator, but that was too precious to me. Second, no one ever questioned what I did as a priest.

Christians from overseas came to Mass, saw our sacred oils, holy water, medals, statues, vestments, rituals, and never said a word! The marvelous style, symbolism, music, and artistic taste of the Roman Church was all very captivating. Incense not only smells pungent, but to the mind it spells mystery.

The Turning Point

One day, a woman challenged me (the only Christian ever to challenge me in all my 22 years as a priest), "You Roman Catholics have a form of godliness, but you deny its power." Those words bothered me for some time because the lights, banners, folk music, guitars, and drums were dear to me. Probably no priest on the whole island of Trinidad had as colorful robes, banners, and vestments as I had. Clearly I did not apply what was before my eyes.

In October 1985, God's grace was greater than the lie that I was trying to live. I went to Barbados to pray over the compromise that I was forcing myself to live. I felt truly trapped. The Word of God is absolute indeed. I ought to obey it alone; yet to the very same God I had vowed obedience to the supreme authority of the Catholic Church. In Barbados I read a book in which was explained the Biblical meaning of Church as "the fellowship of believers." In the New Testament there is no hint of a hierarchy; "Clergy" lording it over the "laity" is unknown. Rather, it is as the Lord Himself declared "...one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (Matthew 23:8).

Now to see and to understand the meaning of church as "fellowship" left me free to let go of the Roman Catholic Church as supreme authority and depend on Jesus Christ as Lord. It began to dawn on me that in Biblical terms, the Bishops I knew in the Catholic Church were not Biblical believers. They were for the most part pious men taken up with devotion to Mary and the Rosary and loyal to Rome, but not one had any idea of the finished work of salvation, that Christ's work is done, that salvation is personal and complete. They all preached penance for sin, human suffering, religious deeds, "the way of man" rather than the Gospel of grace. But by God's grace I saw that it was not through the Roman Church nor by any kind of works that one is saved, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

New Birth at Age 48

I left the Roman Catholic Church when I saw that life in Jesus Christ was not possible while remaining true to Roman Catholic doctrine. In leaving Trinidad in November 1985, I only reached neighboring Barbados. Staying with an elderly couple, I prayed to the Lord for a suit and necessary money to reach Canada, for I had only tropical clothing and a few hundred dollars to my name. Both prayers were answered without making my needs known to anyone except the Lord.

From a tropical temperature of 90 degrees, I landed in snow and ice in Canada. After one month in Vancouver, I came to the United States of America. I now trusted that He would take care of my many needs, since I was beginning life anew at 48 years of age, practically penniless, without an alien resident card, without a driver's license, without a recommendation of any kind, having only the Lord and His Word.

I spent six months with a Christian couple on a farm in Washington State. I explained to my hosts that I had left the Roman Catholic Church and that I had accepted Jesus Christ and His Word in the Bible as all-sufficient. I had done this, I said, "absolutely, finally, definitively, and resolutely." Yet far from being impressed by these four adverbs, they wanted to know if there was any bitterness or hurt inside me. In prayer and in great compassion, they ministered to me, for they themselves had made the transition and knew how easily one can become embittered. Four days after I arrived in their home, by God's grace I began to see in repentance the fruit of salvation. This meant being able not only to ask the Lord's pardon for my many years of compromising but also to accept His healing where I had been so deeply hurt. Finally, at age 48, on the authority of God's Word alone, by grace alone, I accepted Christ's substitutionary death on the Cross alone. To Him alone be the glory.

Having been refurbished both physically and spiritually by this Christian couple together with their family, I was provided a wife by the Lord, Lynn, born-again in faith, lovely in manner, intelligent in mind. Together we set out for Atlanta, Georgia, where we both got jobs.

A Real Missionary With A Real Message

In September 1988, we left Atlanta to go as missionaries to Asia. It was a year of deep fruitfulness in the Lord that once I would never have thought was possible. Men and women came to know the authority of the Bible and the power of Christ's death and resurrection. I was amazed at how easy it is for the Lord's grace to be effective when only the Bible is used to present Jesus Christ. This contrasted with the cobwebs of church tradition that had so clouded my 21 years in missionary garments in Trinidad, 21 years without the real message.

To explain the abundant life of which Jesus spoke and which I now enjoy, no better words could be used than those of Romans 8:1-2: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." It is not just that I have been freed from the Roman Catholic system, but that I have become a new creature in Christ. It is by the grace of God, and nothing but His grace, that I have gone from dead works into new life.

Testimony to the Gospel of Grace

Back in 1972, when some Christians had taught me about the Lord healing our bodies, how much more helpful it would have been had they explained to me on what authority our sinful nature is made right with God. The Bible clearly shows that Jesus substituted for us on the cross. I cannot express it better than Isaiah 53:5: "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." (This means that Christ took on himself what I ought to suffer for my sins. Before the Father, I trust in Jesus as my substitute.)

That was written 750 years before the crucifixion of our Lord. A short time after the sacrifice of the cross, the Bible states in I Peter 2:24: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

Because we inherited our sin nature from Adam, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. How can we stand before a Holy God -- except in Christ -- and acknowledge that He died where we ought to have died? God gives us the faith to be born again, making it possible for us to acknowledge Christ as our substitute. It was Christ who paid the price for our sins: sinless, yet He was crucified. This is the true Gospel message. Is faith enough? Yes, born-again faith is enough. That faith, born of God, will result in good works including repentance: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

In repenting, we put aside, through God's strength, our former way of life and our former sins. It does not mean that we cannot sin again, but it does mean that our position before God has changed. We are called children of God, for so indeed we are. If we do sin, it is a relationship problem with the Father which can be resolved, not a problem of losing our position as a child of God in Christ, for this position is irrevocable. In Hebrews 10:10, the Bible says it so wonderfully: "...we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

The finished work of Christ Jesus on the Cross is sufficient and complete. As you trust solely in this finished work, a new life which is born of the Spirit will be yours -- you will be born again.

The Present Day

My present task: the good work that the Lord has prepared for me to do is as an evangelist situated in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S.A. What Paul said about his fellow Jews I say about my dearly loved Catholic brothers: my heart's desire and prayer to God for Catholics is that they may be saved. I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based in God's Word but in their church tradition. If you understand the devotion and agony that some of our brothers and sisters in the Philippines and South America have put into their religion, you may understand my heart's cry: "Lord, give us a compassion to understand the pain and torment of the search our brothers and sisters have made to please You. In understanding pain inside the Catholic hearts, we will have the desire to show them the Good News of Christ's finished work on the Cross."

My testimony shows how difficult it was for me as a Catholic to give up Church tradition, but when the Lord demands it in His Word, we must do it. The "form of godliness" that the Roman Catholic Church has makes it most difficult for a Catholic to see where the real problem lies. Everyone must determine by what authority we know truth. Rome claims that it is only by her own authority that truth is known. In her own words, Cannon 212, Section 1, "The Christian faithful, conscious of their own responsibility, are bound by Christian obedience to follow what the sacred pastors, as representatives of Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or determine as leaders of the Church." (Vatican Council II based, Code of Canon Law promulgated by Pope John-Paul II, 1983).

Yet according to the Bible, it is God's Word itself which is the authority by which truth is known. It was man-made traditions which caused the Reformers to demand "the Bible only, faith only, grace only, in Christ only, and to God only be the glory."

The Reason Why I Share

I share these truths with you now so that you can know God's way of salvation. Our basic fault as Catholics is that we believe that somehow we can of ourselves respond to the help God gives us to be right in His sight. This presupposition that many of us have carried for years is aptly defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) #2021, "Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons...."

With that mindset, we were unknowingly holding to a teaching that the Bible continually condemns. Such a definition of grace is man's careful fabrication, for the Bible consistently declares that the believer's right standing with God is "without works" (Romans 4:6), "without the deeds of the Law" (Romans 3:28), "not of works" (Ephesians 2:9), "It is the gift of God," (Ephesians 2:8). To attempt to make the believer's response part of his salvation and to look upon grace as "a help" is to flatly deny Biblical truth,

"...if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace..." (Romans 11:6). The simple Biblical message is that "the gift of righteousness" in Christ Jesus is a gift, resting on His all-sufficient sacrifice on the cross, "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:17).

So it is as Christ Jesus Himself said, He died in place of the believer, the One for many (Mark 10:45), His life a ransom for many. As He declared, ...this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28). This is also what Peter proclaimed, "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God..." (I Peter 3:18).

Paul's preaching is summarized at the end of II Corinthians 5:21, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.." (II Cor. 5:21).

This fact, dear reader, is presented clearly to you in the Bible. Acceptance of it is now commanded by God, "...Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

The most difficult repentance for us dyed-in-the-wool Catholics is changing our mind from thoughts of "meriting," "earning," "being good enough," simply to accepting with empty hands the gift of righteousness in Christ Jesus. To refuse to accept what God commands is the same sin as that of the religious Jews of Paul's time, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." (Romans 10:3)

Repent and believe the Good News!

Richard Bennett

A native of Ireland he returned there in 1996 on an evangelistic tour. He now lives in Portland Oregon U.S.A. He teaches a workshop at Multnomah Bible College on "Catholicism in the Light of Biblical Truth." His greatest joy is door-to-door witnessing . He has produced three series of radio broadcasts. A fourth series is about to begin in the Philippines on D.W.T.I. and D.V. R .O. radio stations. He is co-editor of this book and founder of the ministry named "Berean Beacon."


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic; ireland; irish; priest; undeadthread
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To: Cronos; presently no screen name
Why exactly does your Seventh Day Adventist group believe we believe what you think we believe?

You don't sound all that familiar with SDA doctrine. They believe that works (obeying the ten commandments) ARE necessary for salvation. I don't read PNSN saying that in any posts.

5,481 posted on 08/01/2010 11:16:23 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Deo volente

Thanks. that’s what she meant.


5,482 posted on 08/01/2010 11:20:01 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: BnBlFlag

Thank u!!! Saves a lot of work. Good source.


5,483 posted on 08/01/2010 11:20:29 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Deo volente

Thank you. I’m ok with that. :o)


5,484 posted on 08/01/2010 11:22:25 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums; Cronos

Thanks, boatbums. And I’m not familiar with their beliefs, either. And you are right, nowhere did I say or imply that.

Cronos - Why did you associate me with a church/organization that doesn’t align themselves with the Word of God?


5,485 posted on 08/01/2010 11:28:39 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: narses

Where did you get that from?


5,486 posted on 08/01/2010 11:32:37 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Cronos
Hummmm... Islam's hatred for Christianity covers the globe today as much as it has Historically...that will never change for any who bare the name of Christian. Islam hates all who do not fall under their banner. Their ideology stands firmly on no peace apart from Islam....and this goes for any religion aside from Islam. That pretty much covers everyone who is not Muslim.

But even so the Catholic Church has become cozier with Islam over the years...how cozy that will become remains to be seen but it is surely moving that direction, just as the Mormon church is moving toward Islam acceptance. Additionally the more liberal/secular mainline Protestant churches.

5,487 posted on 08/02/2010 12:29:10 AM PDT by caww
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To: Jvette

The penality for sin was indeed completed and finished at Calvary.... Who shall save us from this body of sin?...Thank God...”There is NOW therefore no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus”....

As Christians we do still sin against God but this too is under the saving blood of Christ. Yet the consquences for our sins now even run their course....”sin brings forth death”... and the death penalty remains, for “It is appointed once for all men to die”...but thru Christ’s resurrection we have victory over death and the promise of eternal life thru Him forever more....” “Oh death where is thy sting”....

His forgiveness is available always and His victory over assured....as we trust Him now. We walk by faith that He is willing and able to forgive every sin. Now and forever more. There is no stop gap in between where anything we do or say changes that equation.


5,488 posted on 08/02/2010 12:46:22 AM PDT by caww
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To: Deo volente
she was redeemed in anticipation of His merits on the Cross. She was also sanctified beforehand, at the moment of her conception.

How? I read nothing which attest to Mary being saved at conception, or her being sanctified beforehand. The announcement was all about Christ and His birth...She said...'Behold the handmaiden of the Lord, be it unto me as you will"...Her willingness to have what was spoken to be so. But nothing of her being saved.??????

5,489 posted on 08/02/2010 12:57:01 AM PDT by caww
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To: Quix; narses

We need fly swatters in this place...the knats are terrible.


5,490 posted on 08/02/2010 12:59:56 AM PDT by caww
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To: smvoice
I am just trying to find out what other sola believers believe about your belief as reflected in this statement that you made

He saved Paul for a very important reason. And it wasn’t to carry the same message He had given Peter and the 11.

It may be possible to draw conclusions from silence; but, I keep hoping someone will have enough courage and integrity to at least respond.

5,491 posted on 08/02/2010 3:17:52 AM PDT by don-o (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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To: metmom; Jvette
I find it very interesting that so many Catholics make all kinds of odd statements and condemnations about what Christians believe and yet think so highly of someone who so thoroughly represents Evangelical thought.

It was I who mentioned Zacharias, and I am not a Roman Catholic. Not sure what you find odd. You think Catholics are not Christians?

My belief is that sola believers (which I once was) lack the fullness of the faith which is preserved in the one holy catholic and apostolic church.

To the extent that a person holds the faith which the church holds (and has always held) is the extent to which his teaching can be received by the faithful.

5,492 posted on 08/02/2010 3:27:07 AM PDT by don-o (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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To: MarkBsnr; OLD REGGIE
1. The Alexandrian Jews had the authority to write the Jewish Canon.

According to whom? They had the authority to translate Hebrew scrolls. The "Authority" was the Temple at Jerusalem.

2. They did, several centuries before Jesus was born.

There is no doubt that there were Hebrew scholars at Alexandria (and in Babylon). But it is a huge stretch to consider Alexandria to be equal in authority to the Temple of Jerusalem.

3. Most Jews did not speak Hebrew - it was a scholastic language mostly relegated to the Pharisees.

Not true, at least until after the Roman period. The Torah scrolls (found anywhere) are all in Hebrew and these were read to the assemblies - implying understanding of Hebrew by those attending. The coins in Israel were minted in Hebrew, and the grave markers are Hebrew.

Perhaps it is fair to say that outlying communities (Rome, Alexandria, Greece, etc) were losing their native language, but I highly doubt that "Most Jews did not speak Hebrew" is an effective statement until after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the ending of the necessity of the religious pilgrimages thereto.

5. The Scrolls in Qumran validate the Septuagint over the Masoretic text.

That is simply false. About 35% of the DSS align with the Masoretic texts, while less than 5% with the Septuagint and 5% with the Syriac.

6. It is very likely that there was no Council of Jamnia - there are no current records of it or its agenda or its accomplishments.

There certainly was a Council at Jamnia - It is the historical beginning of Rabbinic Judaism. That certainly was in it's agenda, else Rabbinic Judaism has no sanction, and could not be implemented... How Judaism would function in diaspora had to be defined - handed off, as it were - from the authority of the Temple priesthood, which could no longer function (as the Temple was gone).

I agree with you that canon probably wasn't discussed, as it probably never entered their mind. Canon is a fairly foreign concept. Canon only became necessary when the Temple was removed, and I doubt that canon was a problem just a generation away from it's destruction. However, since the LLX was live and active, and the Temple system destroyed, It may well be that canon was discussed in order to preserve orthodoxy.

What made the Alexandrian Septuagint wrong, or at least, able to be superseded by the hypothetical Jamnian text?

When there is a discrepancy, one should, no doubt, cede to the earliest form. Jewish leaders felt that the Masoretic Text was a better match to what was considered as orthodox in the Second Temple Period. Early historians (from that time), agreed with the Masoretic Text, as did (for the most part, 2 books differing AFAIR), the Pharisaic Mishnah.

It turns out they were right, as the DSS afirm.

Secondly, all of the extant texts other than the Masoretic are not available in Hebrew, and therefore cannot be positively guarded against having been added to, or changed - Unlike Rome, "every jot and tittle" must be correct in order for a translation to be valid. Without a doubt, the books in question have been Hellenized, and would be objectionable on that count alone. They do not even translate back into Hebrew in a handy fashion.

[...] And, with the Temple destruction in AD 70, do the Jews have authority over Christian Scripture?

By right, yes, they do. It is my firm belief that all of the NT was originally written in Hebrew (of a necessity). And there is evidence that I am right.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, several more copies of the Shem-Tov Hebrew Matthew have come to light. Now, while I believe this to be a less than accurate copy, there are many things which speak to an authentic Hebrew Matthew:

Particularly, there are word-puns which are prevalent in Hebrew, which provide a certain rhyme and flourish to Hebrew writing. These are prolific in this (Shem Tov) Hebrew version, and wholly absent in Matthew translated into Hebrew from the Greek, or from Aramaic, for that matter.

Secondly, there are better transliterations in the Hebrew Shem-Tov. As an instance, in the Greek "Blessed are the poor in spirit," I am told the Greek word for "poor" means something close to "wretched" or "destitute," which leaves the reader with a sense of spirit being in short supply - In the Shem-Tov family, the Hebrew word for "poor" in this phrase means "humble..." And it is not the same word used in Greek to Hebrew translations of the same phrase.

That is a significant, and better, expression.'

However, until we are blessed with the originals in some fashion, there is nothing particular for the Hebrews to authorize, other than the same sort of guessing which drives the translations offered today. The accents are lost, the meaning that can be derived from each individual letter cannot be determined.

I look forward to such Hebrew manuscripts being uncovered - And when they are, It will be the Hebrews that will confirm them as authentic. No doubt we will see then how faithfully Rome has executed her own versions... And by extension, Protestants as well.

5,493 posted on 08/02/2010 4:17:17 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: caww; Quix
I have often wondered if the pressure many catholics feel, is because God is trying to get the true believers out of the catholic church before this happens. Same with the protestant churches, which are breaking up because of the morality issues etc. As though God is attempting to prepare us all for what is coming....sifting... if you will.

You've said a mouthful... and you ain't seen nothing yet.

5,494 posted on 08/02/2010 4:36:40 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: MarkBsnr
1. The Alexandrian Jews had the authority to write the Jewish Canon.

Naw...The only ones who would have determined the canon were the Levites...And they wouldn't have been caught dead in Alexandria, Egypt...

3. Most Jews did not speak Hebrew - it was a scholastic language mostly relegated to the Pharisees.

The Jews still speak Hebrew today...They have always spoken Hebrew...

5. The Scrolls in Qumran validate the Septuagint over the Masoretic text.

You better do more research because they certainly do not...

The OT canon was closed by the time Jesus was preaching the Gospel...

look at Paul's quotations from the Septuagint if you think that those from Jesus are not enough.

There is no proof of a pre NT Septuagint...Many scholars believe it was written by Origen or Eusebius...And that of course would explain why NT scriptures match the Septuagint...The Septuagint writer copied from the NT which was already written...

5,495 posted on 08/02/2010 5:10:56 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos
John would not have sank” —> how exactly do you know that?

Peter sank due to lack of faith...John had more faith than Peter...John was front and center at the Crucifixion while Peter turned into a coward and ran off...

Jesus didn't pick Peter to walk on the water...It was Peter's idea...

5,496 posted on 08/02/2010 5:15:02 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos
The Bible is not exhaustive in every detail. John 21:25 speaks to the fact that there are many things that Jesus said and did that are not recorded in John

Nope...You got to quit adding words to God's scripture...

Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Jesus didn't say any other things that would add to or change what He revealed in the scriptures that we have...

Jesus DID a lot of things which would be many, many more miracles, the same kind of which He revealed to us in His scriptures...

There is no authority given for your religion to come up with NEW revelation from God...

5,497 posted on 08/02/2010 5:28:12 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos
Paul had his role as evangelist to the gentiles.

What, you don't believe the bible or you just don't read it...

Paul was a hand picked Apostle to reveal the Gospel of the Grace of God and to build the church...

What churches did Peter start??? And don't say Rome because there is no biblical evidence of that...

5,498 posted on 08/02/2010 5:33:44 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: narses; Quix; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Natural Law; Deo volente; Jvette; MarkBsnr

From Quix...””Yet, even there, we don’t know how comprehensive or robust her faith was.””

We have a very accurate idea because of history and the Church Fathers. The late Fr William Most wrote this very good article explaining what The Blessed Mother knew

The Interior Life of Our Lady- by Fr William Most

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=122
Excerpts....

The implication is of course that His Mother did not know much about him. The question is even raised; if she knew she had conceived virginal, would not she have told him, and so He would not have been so ignorant? This even implies a doubt about the virginal conception.

So we must ask: Just what did she really know about Him and when? We are going to explore that Scripturally. We will also try to penetrate her interior life.

The key is found with remarkable ease. As soon as the archangel told her that her Son would reign over the house of Jacob forever — at once, not just she who was full of grace, but almost any ordinary Jew would know: He will be the Messiah!

At once there would begin to flood into her mind all the scriptural prophecies about the Messiah. And in pondering in her heart even more would come to mind.

How much would she be able to understand? The not too sharp scholars now say that we cannot get much out of those prophecies without hindsight - without seeing them fulfilled in Christ. Yet we have the means of knowing what the ancient Jews understood, and understood without hindsight - they hated Him!

We can know these things thanks to the Targums, which of course were composed without hindsight.

It is really strange how our modern commentaries on the prophecies ignore the Targums, even the New Jerome Commentary which includes a rather good essay on the Targums, yet in dealing with the individual prophecies not once uses them. So it is shocking but true that ancient and modern Jews saw and see more than do so many Catholic scholars.

Now the Targums are very old Aramaic versions of the Old Testament — mostly rather free — and so they show how the texts were understood. But when? How early? One of the best of modern Jewish scholars, Jacob Neusner, in his work Messiah in Context made a survey of all Jewish writings from after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. up to and including the Babylonian Talmud -probably written 500-600 AD. He found something very surprising: up to the Talmud there was hardly any interest in the Messiah; within it, interest returns, but it speaks of only one major note: He is of the line of David.

In contrast, the section in the Targums on the prophecies find the Messiah in so very many places. It is obvious: they hardly could have been written during literally centuries when there was virtually no interest in the Messiah. So they must date, at least in oral form, to before 70 AD. Some would put the first beginnings in the scene in the book of Nehemiah where Ezra read the Law to the people, and had Levites among them explain it.

What did the Levites do? Some think they translated into Aramaic, since during the exile many Jews had switched to Aramaic. Others think they gave explanations, which would be the start of the Targums. Whatever be the truth, we know the Targums were on hand at least by the time of Christ.

Would Our Lady have heard the Targums? Of course, they were read in the synagogues. But even without that: if the stiff-necked Jews could see so much, of course the one full of grace would see that and much more.

Now modern scholars have a hard time with Gen 3. 15, “Enmity between you and the woman.” Some foolishly say it just means that women do not like snakes!

But the Targums knew it referred to the Messiah. True, they did cloud it with a bit of allegory, but they surely knew it spoke of the Messiah, and therefore of His Mother. (This is true independently of what we think of Jerome’s version: she shall crush your head) .

No, three of four Targums speak similarly. Here are the words of Targum Neophyte: “And it shall be: when the sons of the woman observe the Torah and fulfill the commandments, they will aim to strike you [serpent] on the head and kill you. And when the sons of the woman forsake the precepts of the Torah and will not keep the commandments of the Law you will aim at and wound him at his heel and make him ill [the son of the woman] For her son, however, there will be a remedy, but for you, serpent, there will be no remedy. They will make peace in the future in the day of King Messiah. “

In spite of the small cloud from the allegory, it is clear that there will be a victory by the son of the woman. But she, seeing this, could not help seeing that if Gen 3. 15. spoke of the Messiah: she was to be His Mother. And even though some moderns think there is only a draw, no victory, the Targum saw the victory. So He would be the victor, and she in that way was to share in the victory. - If we may anticipate a bit: later on PIUS XII, in Munificentissimus Deus, would see her obedient suffering was so great and close that the Pope spoke of a “work in common” with that Son, so much so that since His suffering brought Him glorification in resurrection and ascension, then the “work in common” had to bring her the glorification of the Assumption. It was the Holy Spirit who later brought the Church to see this fullness: hardly would He, her Spouse, who made her full of grace, omit to bring her to see the same evident truth: He. obedient even to death, death on a cross; she, obedient to what she knew was the positive will of the Father, not only not crying out, but positively willing, with a heart wounded by love for Him, that He should die, die then, die so horribly. Any soul, when it knows the positive will of God, is required to positively will the same.

What was to be the nature of the victory? Obedience, by Him who on entering into this world had said: “Behold I come to do your will, O God. That work in common would outweigh and cancel out the disobedience of Adam and Eve and of all their offspring.

Her fiat, just given, would inaugurate the obedience. Or rather, it would merge with His obedience already offered, “Behold I come to do your will O God.

Pope Pius IX in defining the Immaculate Conception said that the “unspeakable God [ineffabiliis Deus] heaped her up with such an abundance of every grace that “none greater under God can be thought of, and no one but God can comprehend it.” So not even the highest seraphim who in Isaiah’s vision never cease saying “Holy, Holy, Holy” could grasp her holiness.

Naturally, then, we ask if she had at least at times the beatific vision?

Some reason: It is often said: Moses had that vision— so she must have had it too. Now in chapter 33 of Exodus we read that God used to speak with Moses “face to face”. At first sight this seems to mean Moses had that beatific vision. But then, a few lines lower in the same chapter, Moses asked God to see His face. God explained it was impossible, but that He would hide Moses in the cleft of the rock, and then shade him until His glory passed. So the words earlier saying Moses spoke to God “face to face” would not really mean a direct vision, but only that God would converse back and forth with Moses as with a present friend.

But St. Paul in 2 Cor 12 said he was taken up to the third heaven and heard unspeakable words [arrheta rhemata], that no one may speak or is able to speak [exon -can mean “is permitted” or, “is able”]. That expression has several possible meanings. First it might merely mean he was forbidden to speak— exon can have that meaning. Or it could mean there are no words to express it.

When we use words, e.g. red, green, blue, they are understood at once: both of us have a common experience. But the same words to a colorblind man would not mean much. Similarly with the highest reaches of infused contemplation, there are no words that are known to both speaker and hearer. Hence Paul might have been unable to find words. So too, her grace from the inexpressible God is inexpressible.

St. John of the Cross helps us now: “God alone moves the powers of those souls... to those deeds which are suitable according to the ordinance of God, and they cannot be moved to others.... Such were the actions of the most glorious Virgin, Our Lady, who, being elevated from the beginning [of her life] to this lofty state, never had the form of any creature impressed on her, but was always moved by the Holy Spirit” (Ascent 3. 2, 19 and Living Flame 1. 4; 1. 9; 2, 34) .

So she began at a point higher than that at which other souls leave off at the culmination of a life of holiness. She “never had the form of any creature impressed on her....” — to see this we review the three levels of guides a soul may follow in making decisions. First and lowest, it follows the whim of the moment. Aristotle in Ethics 1. 5 says this is a life fit for cattle — they always do just what they feel like doing. On the second level the soul follows reason, which in practice will usually be aided by actual grace. On this level the typical pattern is discursive, from step to step. Thus I might say to myself: I see I have sinned, I need penance. But what penance? How much have I sinned? what will fit with the duties of my state in life?

In this way the soul comes to a decision step by step. But on the third level, that on which the Gifts of the Holy Spirit operate - and they do more than just give guidance — the answer is as it were dropped ready-made into the soul. There are no steps. Hence if later someone asked: why do you wan this?, the soul would have to say I do not know I just know it is right.

Of course in this the soul could be deceived. But the Holy Spirit protects: — first, this sort of guidance comes only when the soul is well advanced. Second, ordinarily this guidance leaves the soul somewhat short of certain: a sign to consult a director or superior. Only in rare cases, when needed, will certitude be given at once.

We saw that St. John of the Cross said that never was the form of any creature imprinted upon her. When we are led to act on either the first or second levels described above, the image or form of something good to do is impressed on our minds. This goodness attracts us. But in Our Lady, far up on the third level, such was not the case: it was not a created form that attracted her, but simply the movement of the Holy Spirit. Hence her perfect responsiveness to the Spirit, who is often called her Spouse.

When a soul reaches the higher levels of the purgative way, there comes a point of total aridity (one of the three signs given by St. John of the Cross of the coming of infused contemplation): It finds no pleasure in earthly or in spiritual things. Thus God brings it to the point at which no form of any creature imprints itself on it. Our Lady was at the highest level reached by the highest Saints at the end of their ascent. She came even to the edge of the abyss of the divinity as it were, and peered into that abyss. Not even a ;positive imperfection could impress itself on her so as to move it. There would be grace under God capable of preventing that -so she had it, else her grace would not be so great that none greater under God can be thought of.

St. Gregory of Nyssa pictures Moses as is were rising through the mist that covered Sinai to the point where “the true vision of the One we seek... consists in not seeing: for the One Sought is beyond all knowledge “. Moses had then a certain contact with God. Philo, followed by the Rabbis, says Moses after his first encounter with God, no longer had sex with his wife.

We ask: did she know her Son was divine? Yes.

First she almost certainly perceived that from her inexpressible contact with the divinity, Not a few Saints have been able to perceive the Presence n the Tabernacle. This does not prove she could perceive it, but makes it most highly likely with her grace such that “none greater under God can be thought of.”


5,499 posted on 08/02/2010 5:59:09 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: metmom
What? It was a strong draw to Catholicism that you'd burn for uncounted years to pay for sin that Jesus died to remove, instead of believing that Jesus paid it all and there is no punishment left for us to bear?
Sins of scarlet! Sins of scarlet! Yes, Purgatory was a strong draw for me. Its existence also gave me hope for my own fallen family members, that they could be saved through my sufferings and my prayers.

When my mother passed away a couple years ago, her MS-Lutheran friend (they were friends for almost 70 years), said, "Well, there's nothing I can do for your mother [MS-Lutheran as well] now; I tried, believe me, I tried when she was on earth," while her daily-Mass/daily Rosary-reciting friend, whom she played cards with, said to me last year, "Don't worry, I've been praying [she leads the Rosary after daily Mass] for your mother every single day since she died ... to make sure she's in position at the table for Pinochle when I get there."

Purgatory and those who believe in same can bring hope to anyone who has ever sinned, which means all of us, save Mary. Christ died for us on the Cross, it is true; now it's up to us to show Him (through love, hope, faith & works, patience, suffering with joy ...) that we are grateful for his Passion.

Holy Souls in Purgatory, while we pray for you, please pray for US ...
5,500 posted on 08/02/2010 6:21:51 AM PDT by mlizzy (Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee ...)
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