Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Except for Rome, of course, which was the most powerful state on earth at the time. (unless you are resorting to word games and card tricks to try to prove your point).
If it were important for us to know I believe that is one of the criteria of canonical testing.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Yah'shua would have cited from them.
What an excellent characterization of the "Reformation".
Go right ahead, address and refute his points. Be my guest! If he’s so wrong, it should be a piece of cake to demolish his argument. They might even publish you in one of your protestant journals. You’ll be a sensation!
Don’t call him names. That’s playground stuff, only worthy of a little child who doesn’t get his way. Man up, now, and refute him!
We’re waiting breathlessly.
How many are included in your "We're"? Tell them to take a breath now and then or they'll surely die. That would be group suicide.
How can you say I was calling him names when I clearly acknowledged he was a Professional Apologist for Catholic Answers? Is that true?
I am a tired old fogey approaching 80 with no background whatsoever in Debate (I might have taken 3-6 semester hours of Logic back in the middle ages) and would surely be overmatched.
Breath now.
Enlighten me.
It's amazing that they BRAZENLY DENY that they are worshiping her and have elevated her into Jr God status . . .The TRUTH bothers Quix. Help him/her shake off the blindness and see and hear reality.
Opinion:There was no such thing as a Catholic Church.
Opinion, because of "valid': The Council of Jamnia compiled the only valid Scripture.
It is only by the application of a standard for a theory of how the Church grew that one can say that the early Church was not the Catholic Church.
It is only by the application of a standard that one can say only the Hebrew Scriptures comprise the 'valid' OT.
Right or wrong, it was a position statement.
OK.
I honestly don't believe he understands the concept. He is not alone amongst the anti-Catholics We know and they know who they are).
The most glaring example is the daily insistence that we Catholics are wrong when we state what we believe and the Church is wrong when it clearly documents what we believe. However, any source or poster, that affirms his preclusions, no matter how dubious or oft refuted, just has to be right.
Rather than enter into legitimate dialog comparing or contrasting the Catholic belief system to his form of Protestantism we are subjected to flippant strawman statements and lectures telling us that we actually believe something different than we say we do.
I think Quix is just jealous. After being denied a spot with the Backstreet Boys, Quix decided to try for popularity with the Catholics. Since that also failed, the obvious response is to slander the Church and promote libleous claims. This is obviously an attempt to garner popularity before trying to break onto the Teen Disney scene.
It’s the only logical explanation for Quix’s behavior.
Just for starters:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/
(over 2,000 Scripture selections at this site alone which defend Catholic teaching)
Agreed. Much of Catholic Doctrine is backed up by Scripture.
As Iscool says the evolved RCC cannot back up their entire doctrine with Scripture so they invented some, etc.
“Agreed. Much of Catholic Doctrine is backed up by Scripture.”
Good, an honest answer.
Then you say:
“RCC cannot back up their entire doctrine with Scripture so they invented some, etc.”
OK, name two or three “invented” doctrines that you claim are NOT backed up by scripture, can you? BTW, what denomination do you belong to? What are the doctrines that you believe that somehow contradict a doctrine that the Catholic Church teaches?
The Catholic never accepted that Scripture is the only source of the Revealed Word of God. Honest Protestants agree with this position too. But since you profess to be wiser than the Church Fathers and 2000 years of Catholic clergy and laity perhaps you can tell us how Scripture was to be the font of all that is Holy for the 350 years before the canon and 1500 years before the invention of the printing press and accompanying mass literacy.
Another question that has puzzled me for a while: How much success have Protestant missionaries had passing out leaflets and Bibles to illiterate, and stone-age jungle tribesmen?
I have been reading along with much interest but have mostly withheld comment because there was a long stretch of “all heat, no light.”
Now I would like to add “two cents” for the discussion.
It seems to me that a lot of the angst between the Catholic and non-Catholic Christians may stem from traditions of the Catholic Church which have accumulated over the years in an attempt to communicate doctrine to the illiterate masses.
For instance, there is a lot of “acting out” of Church doctrine such as making the cross over the chest, walking forward to touch or kiss a wooden cross at Easter, kneeling before statues, kissing the ring of a religious authority, sprinkling themselves with water and so on.
God instructed some of the Old Testament prophets to act out His prophecies. And by washing the apostles’ feet Jesus acted out the doctrine of helping one another to rid ourselves of the earthly concerns we gather as we walk in Him in this mortal life. It was not about feet:
Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head.
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. – John 13:3-15
Likewise, I strongly suspect the opulent attire of Catholic men consecrated to God – whether Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, etc. – was an “acting out” of doctrines involving the separation between the spiritual and the earthly with an emphasis on which is to be preferred. Ditto for the opulent buildings, art, altars and devices used in the Mass.
And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. – Luke 22:35-36
Then again, the Church was commissioned to preach the Gospel back when most people were illiterate. To their target audience, a picture was quite literally worth a thousand words. A statue of a saint suggests in visual form that a Christian life well lived is honorable and desirable - and honoring that saint in a litany reminds the illiterate that the sanctified Christian life is above the mortal coil.
Now for my complaint.
I believe the Catholic Church was faithful in getting the initial message out there to the illiterate masses but I also believe it has fallen short by not following-through with the converts after confirmation. Where the indigenous indians quite literally moved into the Spanish Missions, there was follow-through. But where the converts simply walked out the door back into their secular life there was not adequate follow-through.
The Catholics on Free Republic are very knowledgeable in their beliefs and in the doctrine of the Church. But “out there” in the secular world, by my experience, they would be the exception, not the rule. Most of the Catholics other than family who I engage in casual conversation – and I am not talking about trying to convert them to any other Christian doctrine – seem to be very hesitant to discuss Christ or their beliefs and/or seem to be ill informed.
Truly, they remind me of those who received an education and then forgot most of it as they went off pursuing life. Continuing education makes sense in many professions and it should be standard among all Christians, Catholic or not.
One would expect those who embrace the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” would be the least inclined to continue their Christian education. But that is not true, on my experience they are often the most driven to ask, seek and knock.
To me, this is a case of the “acting out” back-firing for lack of follow-through.
In the modern secular world, the Christian whether Catholic or not who is not following-through may be inclined to blend whatever doctrine he learns with New Age mysticism or even whatever he may find appealing in modern fiction, e.g. Star Wars' midichlorians, Star Trek's alien nations, Harry Potter's white magic or even (God forbid) benevolent vampires ala Twilight.
I do “get” the point that the Mass is mostly worship whereas the Protestant Service is mostly teaching and it would be wrongful to elevate education to worship. But, in my view, the Catholic Church needs to develop an infrastructure to deal with the masses, whether literate or not, after they walk out the door.
Here they could learn something from the Protestants. In particular, they could encourage small groups within the congregation to get together and socialize on their own in one another’s homes for the purpose of discussing the daily Scripture readings and the doctrines of the Church. In a “Bible Study” like this, it should be lay people talking to one another – priests could unintentionally stifle a group from sharing their views.
And yes I am aware of the Catholic use of television and the internet – but there is nothing quite as effective as the group, which is interactive, reinforcing, social - and people often open up with real world problems, bizarre thoughts or dreams or fears - and are willing to listen to someone who cares enough about the words of God to be there. The focus on Scripture would help all the members in the group to keep themselves centered on God’s will in their secular lives after they walk out the doors.
Any hoot, that’s my “two cents” for the discussion…
God's Name is I AM.
“Here they could learn something from Protestants...”
We have what are called Small Christian Communities and we meet to discuss the bible and Scriptures application to our lives. They are communities within the larger community of the parish in addition to formalized bible study.
If I may say so, you don’t understand the Mass. Unless you understand The Presence, you don’t understand us.
This is a disgustingly nasty thread. I have Protestant friends, evangelical friends, mennonite friends and if they thought like this thread reflects, I would never speak to them again.
Where do the Small Christian Communities meet? And how often? Who attends?
Thank you for the intelligent discourse. Salvation is a very personal and private issue for Catholics. I think this stems from a knowledge or belief that we are all sinners and at final judgment we will stand alone before God.
Non-Catholics often confuse the cultural and traditional aspects of Catholicism with Apostolic Tradition or an embrace of paganism. A perfect example is the placement of a Holy Water font at the entrance of a Church. Every Roman home had such a font at the entrance, whether a fountain, pond, or simple clay bowl and visitors to a home would make a washing of hands and feet a ritual of respect to the home owner before entering. To not do so was a serious affront and insult. How much greater an insult would it have been for anyone to enter the house of God without showing a similar respect?
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
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