Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Dear brother Quix, do you really believe the Roman Church has a monopoly on this phenomenon? I've attended Prottie services that seemed to be more concerned with social and political issues than with the salvation of souls. But then, I live in Massachusetts....
In all fairness, I'd say the same about Catholic services I've attended lately. Though recently I found the National Cathedral of the Divine Mercy in Stockbridge, Massachusetts to be a magnificently blessed island of peace and sanctity in the maelstrom of the currently chaotic roiling sociopolitical and ideological seas.... All praise and glory be to God!
I think I may have mystical tendencies. :^)
And so I agree with you that our RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD is our first priority as Christians. If He is not first and foremost in my heart and soul and mind and strength, then it doesn't matter what I call myself, I wouldn't be any kind of Christian, let alone a Catholic.
When GOD is first and foremost, then we see how all things flow from Him, are sustained by Him, proceeding from His Logos, Alpha to Omega. He is the way and the truth and the light and the life, the very ground of our own being. He is justice — and mercy: He subjected His own Son to pay an infinite price to save "worthless rabble" [my term] who, for whatever reason, God loves and wants to save....
Or at least so it seems to me, FWIW.
BTW, as you may know I have great affinity for Roman Catholic theology, but I did not learn it from the catechism of the Church, at least not as a child. Formal religious instruction was forbidden by my deist Dad. He was concerned that his children would be "brainwashed"....
So I wasn't "brainwashed"; I had no contact with the catechism at all until much later in life. Yet I must note that, among other things Roman Catholic, the great saints and doctors of the Church that I fondly call the "Three Big A's" — Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm — have always been enormously appealing to me, intellectually speaking.... The Church has a long and distinguished heritage of fides quarens intellectum, of faith in quest, or in search, of its reason. This search or quest depends on the openness of the human soul in response to God's appeals to it, by His Logos, through His Holy Spirit. The Church, to me, makes a powerful appeal to the human mind and spirit, quite naturally it seems.
But it never gives short shrift to the body. The Church has an eminently realist position on this. It knows that human beings are not just minds and souls, but bodies as well — at least in this mortal vale of tears. The Church believes even bodies need sanctification (maybe even especially so). And I believe that is why the Holy Mother is so deeply and reverently cherished by Catholics. She is the bodily locus where the divine and eternal Son of God and His finite earthly body came into conjunction. She spans two time orders, earthly and heavenly, as the divinely consecrated handmaiden or vessel of the Lord — the mother of God's Truth, His Logos, in our earthly, worldly system. Mary is not a god; she is the devotedly revered Mother of God, of the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ; she is first and finally a human being who has ascended into Heaven and is now and forever united with her Son.
Plus many other things about the Church really bother some Protties — rituals, art, music — for to them they really smack of idolatry. Well, you can see it that way if you want to. But for me, I'd simply say that these are devices for "sanctifying the body"; for through appeals to the physical senses, they make the presence of God available to the human mind and spirit. A beautiful fresco, or stain-glass window, or musical composition seeks to engage the human person body and soul. Even the pungent olfactory appeal of incense symbolizes the presence of the Holy Spirit. I.e., the incense itself directs our minds to contemplation of the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Sacramental rituals can be explained along similar lines. But I've run overlong already.
In any case, these are my own views; I do not speak for the Roman Catholic Church, only what I have come to know of it as an outsider....
Thank you so much for writing, dear brother in Christ!
I’m not sure. Some think Paul wrote it, and Hebrews, also. I don’t think he wrote either one. What do you think?
Cute. How interesting that SO much energy is expended on what is said to be in gross error by folks whose own beliefs just kind of lay there w/o much challenge at all.
Such as - some folks believe that a baptism in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is not a normal part of a normal Christian life.
Some folks believe that the Gospels in the New Testement are addressed only to the Jews. Not to the Gentiles.
Some folks believe that certain epistles of St Paul is all the Scripture that the church needs.
Speaking of hybrid....
More egregious than the false accusation that Catholics (i.e. you and me) disdain, reject, or are just ignorant of the Bible is the equally false and heinous attack following your defensive exposition of your daily Bible reading, that you are now “boasting” rather than meekly reading your Bible in the closet.
The arrogant, hostile hypocrisy on display here is mind boggling.
And to our blessed Mother.
The critical thing, though, is the addiction to violent and contemptuous rhetoric, and the misuse of language and of the forms of argument.
I ask Uri’el-2012 for information about the word Kepha and am told I have been misled by lies from hell -- and I never get an answer to my question. It's weird.
Good question. It has been debated for centuries whether or not Saint Paul wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews, but I’ve never heard any suggestion that anyone but Saint Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles.
The opening of the Gospel of Saint Luke and the Acts of the Apostles are nearly identical and they are both addressed to Theophilus. It would seem that questioning the authorship of Acts would also entail questioning the authorship of Luke.
Yeah, I’m reading the salutation to Acts now. “The former treatise have I made..” Refers to Luke 1:3. Definitely written by Luke. I don’t know why anyone would disagree with it. Maybe something about it not “sounding” like Luke’s writing. I will take of the Bible says, though. Luke wrote it.
I'll re-post some of them if you'd like, but it will be a very lengthy post. When one of the anti-Catholic posters (I can't remember who) recommended I post just the link, he then turned around and said I should have posted the entire list of verses instead. He was unwilling to click on the link.
So, if you're a Catholic here, you can't win. The terms of the debate are set and no reasoned discussion is allowed. When we come up with voluminous Scriptures supporting Catholic doctrines, they're ignored, or one or two of them are cited that might not have the same force taken out of context.
You see, the Catholic view of Scripture is not a “surface literalist” approach, where we pick and choose only those verses which might, on first blush, support our preconceived bias and ignore all the rest which might point in another direction.
The JW’s and other cults use this faulty approach, and play Bible ping-pong in their “evangelizing”. When confronted with their logical inconsistencies and flawed readings of their verses, they almost always retreat.
The Catholic Church interprets the Word of God as the unified, integrated, and consistent Truth that it really is.
By the way, the Trinity is not explicitly stated in the Bible. It’s not even moderately spelled out. Do you reject the doctrine of the Trinity? It was defined by a CATHOLIC Church council, in 325 A.D., called by a pope. It’s not in the Bible.
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
So when did they make Emperor Constantine who called the council a Pope ?
To assign YHvH's NAME to a mere mortal,
Do the writings of the "church fathers" trump or impugn the Holy Word of G-d ? Matthew. 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my church,
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
One method of Hermeneutical understanding of Matthew 16:18
is to do a word study of all the scriptures which were then known
as the Holy Word of G-d when Yah'shua spoke these words.
This will allow one to understand that all of the Holy Word of G-d
was inspired by YHvH; the whole counsel of G-d.
The only conclusion that one can come to unless you are
predisposed to believe in man's tradition over the Holy Word of G-d
is that Yah'shua was speaking of himself as the "Rock "
e.g.
Peter himself refers to Yah'shua as the "rock" in
Genesis 49:24 But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed
[Or archers will attack...will shoot...will remain...will stay] supple,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
Deuteronomy 32:3 I will proclaim the name of YHvH. Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock , his works are perfect, and all his ways are
just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Deuteronomy 32:15 ..... He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Saviour.
Deuteronomy 32:30 How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten
thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless
YHvH had given them up?
Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock , as even our enemies concede
Deuteronomy 32:32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah.
Their grapes are filled with poison, and their clusters with bitterness.
1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no-one holy [Or no Holy One] like YHvH;
there is no-one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
2 Samuel 22:2 He said: "YHvH is my Rock , my fortress and my deliverer;
2 Samuel 22:3 my God is my Rock , in whom I take refuge, my shield and the
horn [Horn here symbolises strength.] of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my saviour — from violent men you save me.
2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides YHvH? And who is the Rock except our God?
2 Samuel 22:47 "YHvH lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God, the Rock , my Saviour!
2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me:
'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides YHvH? And who is the Rock except our God?
Psalm 18:46 YHvH lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God my Saviour!
Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Psalm 42:9 I say to God my Rock , "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock , that God Most High was their Redeemer.
Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Saviour.'
Psalm 92:15 ..... "YHvH is upright; he is my Rock , and there is no wickedness in him."
Psalm 95:1 Come, let us sing for joy to YHvH; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH my Rock , who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
Habakkuk 1:12 Oh YHvH, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy
One, we will not die. Oh YHvH, you have appointed them to
execute judgment; O Rock , you have ordained them to punish.
1 Peter 2:1-10 NAsbU 1 Peter 2:
It is patently clear from the Holy Word of G-d
1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,
2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
3 if you have tasted the kindness of YHvH.
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices
acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word,
and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION,
so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY,
but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
that the NAME "Rock" is a NAME that describes YHvH,
the creator of the universe.
a created being, seeks to impugn and
deny the Holy Word of G-d.
I think some of them aren’t aware of it and can’t help it.
I think the general concensus is that Saint Paul DID NOT write the Epistle to the Hebrews, but the only people who question the authorship of the rest of the New Testament are these non-Christian historians who don’t believe that any of the Apostles wrote any of it.
The only time I consider this thread is when I have been pinged to it...but are you arguing with a Christian or a semi-Arian? I’ve sort of gotten lost on the discussions back and forth and would appreciate the clarification.
I think Cathdoctridition is a perfect blending into one all your (SORRY NOT YOUR, you're not Catholic) THEIR Church teachings/beliefs.
The amazing Hebrews is so unique that I can understand the arguments against Pauline authorship.
My problem is that I have many writing "voices," and my "voice" has changed over time. So why should Paul be limited to one Pauline style?
I'm not 100% certain myself, there are also some Nestorians thrown into the mix.
I always thought these were cultural holdovers from when many more people than today were illiterate, and the Church sought to pass on revealed truths through a variety of methods other than writing.
Besides, nothing makes a lesson sink in like participating in it.
Cheers!
I have often wondered why an all powerful, satanic cult Roman Catholic church allowed to be included in Scripture verses which others say contradict her every doctrine and practice?
Dissenters will use every semantic contortion known to man to deny the plain words of Jesus regarding the Eucharist in the Gospel of John as symbolic or spiritual, yet vehemently deny that when Scripture calls someone Jesus' brother, then that cannot be symbolic, spiritual or a nuance of language.
So, if you're a Catholic here, you can't win. The terms of the debate are set and no reasoned discussion is allowed.
Do no despair, many lurkers are seeing what is written here and will be strengthened in their faith, or find cause to look more closely at returning home to the Church. Defense of the faith is never a losing proposition.
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