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Testimony of a Former Irish Priest
BereanBeacon.Org ^ | Richard Peter Bennett

Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

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To: Cronos
I wouldn't worship in a Roman Catholic church.

So many names to remember to say my prayers to.

So many statues to honor.

So many rings on the fingers of "alter Christus" to kiss.

So many supplications to a "co-redeemer."

No, thanks. God has saved me from that misstep.

2,861 posted on 07/28/2010 12:54:42 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: boatbums; Mad Dawg; don-o
A very good question asking why?

I'll leave it to my betters like MD to answer the theological reasons, but I think I can answer this from a purely historical perspective: St. Augustine.

That's the short answer, the longer answer is if you compare what our brethern in the Eastern Church believe in compared to what we in the Western Church (Catholics AND Protestants) believe, or rather, HOW we believe.

Simply put, the East is more mystical and the West is more legalistic. This is apparent in +Augustine who is not treated with much reference in the Eastern Church who consider him to be too legalistic and trying to use logic where logic should reach it's end.

The net result is that though the Easterners believe much of this that Mary was born immaculate etc., they see any "proof" for or against this as a waste of time, trying to explain a mystery. Ditto for their concept of Original Sin, which is explained in a far less legalistic fashion.

Anyway, back to the point -- to accept the logical statements of +Augustine trying to logically explain a mystery, one has to have two possible outcomes: one which The Church explains, and the other which many Protestant groups explain. The Eastern approach is to say "why ask this question at all??"
2,862 posted on 07/28/2010 1:03:04 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: don-o; Quix
Note to Quix:

This guy:

Not this guy:

2,863 posted on 07/28/2010 1:07:52 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: caww

Spain had a compulsory tax of 10% on all agriculture goods and agricultural assets (including animals) which the state collected for the Roman Catholic Church from every member of the Roman Catholic Church.

This amounted to a huge amount of money the Romans Catholic Church collected from the people via the State.

This is why they fought to keep their subject in the dark , this why they forced conversions as they could only collect it from Catholics. This is why they forced the country to become Catholic.

It was about power and money .

It’s hard for Americans to imagine this because the founders of this country were wise enough to make state sanctioned religion illegal.

In Europe if you belong to a church in many places to this day the states takes a percentage out of your pay check and gives it to that church.


2,864 posted on 07/28/2010 1:17:56 AM PDT by Lera
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To: boatbums; Natural Law

NL did say that “ Dr. Edward Peters,Inquisition Henry Charles Lea Professor of History at the University of Pennsylvania and a prominent historian in the field” not another namesake


2,865 posted on 07/28/2010 1:31:55 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: RnMomof7; dsc; Quix

And, of course you must be referring to the Calvinist excerpted Bible, which excerpts out texts and tracts for the raving Calvinist cult masses to refer to instead of a real, complete Bible, right?


2,866 posted on 07/28/2010 1:33:14 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: Mad Dawg; RnMomof7
And in all seriosity, What do you all propose to be done by the devout illiterate who is also severely learning disabled or is just, say between 50 and 80 in the IQ scale? How does one provide Christian instruction for them?

Presumably all the Calvinist groups think that these people are not in their Master Plan, ditto for kids below 10 and the like. They aren't included in the Calvinist elite elect.
2,867 posted on 07/28/2010 1:35:09 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: OLD REGGIE; Deo volente; dsc; boatbums; Mad Dawg
You do realise you are using the rules of English grammar to try and understand the rules of Aramaic and / or koine Greek grammar, right?

Next you would say that we don't have a grammatically clear explanation for God the FAther, Son and Holy Spirit being a Trinity
2,868 posted on 07/28/2010 1:36:43 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: Natural Law; Quix; Mad Dawg; Deo volente; wagglebee; dsc; narses
Q: "In 63 years, I think I could count on 1 hand the number of RC’s who have asserted that they felt the RCC encouraged Bible reading."

NL: How many finger do you have? There are at least a half a dozen on this thread alone!

I would say more than 8 posters on this thread alone. Maybe he has 8 appendages on each limb? Don't be speciesist
2,869 posted on 07/28/2010 1:39:08 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: small voice in the wilderness; OLD REGGIE; Deo volente; Cronos; Mad Dawg; dsc

No, not really. Your side argues that rocka stands for Christ not +Peter.


2,870 posted on 07/28/2010 1:41:04 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: OLD REGGIE; Deo volente; Cronos; Mad Dawg; dsc; don-o; narses
Hallucinogens are dangerous.

Ok thanks for the warning, you keep off them now. How many days have you been clean? We'll keep you as an example of how dangerous hallucinogens can be -- what other dreams did they induce for you besides the meanderings on using English Grammar for Greek?
2,871 posted on 07/28/2010 1:50:51 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: Iscool; Deo volente; OLD REGGIE; Mad Dawg; dsc
Jesus never called Peter the rock...Jesus said, 'upon this rock'

you simulataneously display two of the failings of those who are outside Christ's Church display:

1. Excerption and reading out of context. You should read the Bible in context and in it's entirety. The verse Matthew 16:17 to 22 in it's entirety says:
" 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
." You conveniently left that out, right?

2. To assume that you can use the nuances of English to explain Aramaic or Koine Greek is kind of laughable (thought it's sad that most of your kind outside Christ's Church fall for it).
Greek scholars—even non-Catholic ones—admit, the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant "small stone" and "large rock" in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros and petra simply meant "rock." If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the Greek lithos would have been used. The missionary’s argument didn’t work and showed a faulty knowledge of Greek. (For an Evangelical Protestant Greek scholar’s admission of this, see D. A. Carson, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984], Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., 8:368).
And, you need to note that though the gospel was written In Greek, it was spoken in Aramaic. in Paul’s epistles—four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians—we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form). The word Kepha means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’

You ask yourself If kepha means the same as petra, why don’t we read in the Greek, ‘You are Petra, and on this petra I will build my Church’? Why, for Simon’s new name, does Matthew use a Greek word, Petros, which means something quite different from petra?

Because Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures. In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble. But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name—at least back then you couldn’t. You have to change the ending of the noun to make it masculine. When you do that, you get Petros, which was an already-existing word meaning rock.
2,872 posted on 07/28/2010 2:03:36 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: Iscool; Natural Law; Deo volente
Ok, so you want everyone to leave Christ's Church and join the Church of Iscool? Calling Christianity a false religion is, well, false.

What great insight does Iscool have into:

1. Justification -- are we predestined to be saved and some to be damned?
2. Can we lose it? i.e. once saved always saved or not?
3. Should we be baptised into the community of Christ only when we are of knowledgeable age?
4. If you say yes to 3 and say that we must have faith, what about the mentally disabled and the aborted children -- what happens to them?
5. What about scripture, how exactly do you know that the collection of infallible books is complete -- why isn't the Shepherd of Hermas included?
6.or even if it doesn't have an infallible book -- should Philemon be included? Why do YOU think so?
7. Did Christ come to save all mankind or only some?
8. Will all be saved or only some?
2,873 posted on 07/28/2010 2:13:01 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: Natural Law; Iscool
Actually, on the contrary, any Catholic reading Iscool's funny, easily proven as false, statements, would wonder why anyone spreads such stories about The Church? And they would then read the scriptures and others and find out that The Church really IS the Church of Christ. After this forum, I've become a stronger Catholic

Also, Iscool and the rest's actions succeed in getting more and more lurkers to read and ask themselves the same questions and for those lurkers to join Christ's Church, the Apostolic One.

Good job Iscool, by trying to do the enemy's job of attacking the Church, you actually succeed in strengthening it!
2,874 posted on 07/28/2010 2:18:44 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: wmfights; OLD REGGIE

Oh, not to Calvinists, but to Pente-costals with their Arminian philosophy and their kumbajah singa-longs


2,875 posted on 07/28/2010 2:23:43 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: caww
Who exactly does Mr. Anthony Gavin quote? Anthony Gavin dies in 1750 -- He was a Virgina parson claiming (falsely) to be an ex-Catholic priest

You do realise that you're quoting from a hoax source, right? You have any real impartial sources for the Inquisition? I gave you some like the Encyclopedia Brittanica.
2,876 posted on 07/28/2010 2:32:15 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: caww; metmom
I take it of course that you never noted that this was after the Little Ice Age affected Northern Europe, devastating crops etc. and the folks attributed this to witches and asked for clerical investigation?

I take it that you never noted that SEctions 1 and 2 talk about the reasons and examples respectively and section 3 talks about the legal procedure and is what you refer to --> have you ever read it?

HERE is a treatise by Jenny Gibbons for you to refer

The Malleus Maleficarum (review)

by Jenny Gibbons

The Malleus Maleficarum (Hammer of Witches) is a detailed and accurate guide to how the Inquisition ran a Witch trial. Written by two respected inquisitors and enthusiastically endorsed by the Pope, the Malleus lay on the bench of every Witch hunter in Europe. Its detailed descriptions of sabbats and covens spread the fear of Witches throughout Europe, dramatically increasing the number of Witch trials.

Not!!!

That's the common view of the Malleus, but every sentence in that first paragraph is dead wrong.

The Malleus Maleficarum is indeed one of the most influential Witch-hunting manuals of all times. And since it's easily available in modern English translation, it's still influential, the darling of amateur historians today. But it's not a reliable guide to the Burning Times: it's a duplicitous text with a checkered past, a book you simply can't take at face value. So most of this review will focus on common misconceptions about the Malleus -- things you ought to know if you want to use it in your research.

#1: The Author and His Motivation

Almost all of the Malleus was written by one man: Heinrich Kramer (aka Henry Institoris). A German inquisitor of the late 15th century, Kramer was not a well-respected man. His views on Witchcraft were considered weird and extreme by most of his fellow clergymen, who continually opposed and hindered his trials. For instance, Kramer ran a large trial in Innsbruck in 1485, where 57 people were investigated. Nobody was killed. The bishop of Innsbruck became so irritated with Kramer's fascination with the Witches' sexual behavior that he shut down the trials, claiming that the devil was in the inquisitor, not the Witches.

Kramer wrote the Malleus to win the cooperation of his peers. The book isn't -- as some assume -- a guide to what most 15th century Christians believed about Witches. It's a minority opinion, written to convince the populace at large of the dangers of Witchcraft.

#2: The Endorsements

The Malleus is usually circulated along with a papal bull "Summis Desiderantes", which rails against Witches and the people who oppose Kramer and his co-author, Jacob (or James) Sprenger. In the 15th century, there was also a little recommendation from the Faculty of Cologne (the Inquisition's top theologians). Both of these endorsements are misleading.

Pope Innocent had actually never read the Malleus when he wrote "Summis Desiderantes". Kramer complained to the Pope about the poor reception he was receiving from other priests, and the Pope (who was very superstitious and feared Witches greatly) obligingly gave Kramer this bull. He also asked a respected Dominican scholar, Jacob Sprenger, to help Kramer write the Malleus. Kramer treated the bull as if it was a full endorsement of his book, but it wasn't.

The recommendation from Cologne is an out-and-out forgery. When they were finished writing, Sprenger presented the Malleus to the Faculty, asking for its approval. Instead, the Inquisition resoundingly condemned the book. It said that the legal procedures it recommended were unethical and illegal, and that its demonology was not consistent with Catholic doctrine. Undaunted, Kramer forged an enthusiastic endorsement. As you might expect, the Faculty discovered this quickly and was enraged! Kramer and Sprenger parted on bad terms, and the Inquisition condemned Kramer in 1490, just four years after the Malleus was published.

#3: The Impact of the Malleus

The Malleus wasn't an immediately influential book. Most Church and Inquisitorial courts ignored it, probably because of the Faculty's condemnation. Civil courts, unfortunately, gave it more weight. Fooled by the forged recommendation and the out-of-context bull, many non-religious judges believed that the Malleus had the approval of the Church. Many used it, though it did not -- as some authors say -- lie on the bench of every judge.

It publication did not increase the number of Witch trials. In fact, it came at the beginning of a slight lull, when the steady rise in trials stalled for a few decades. But when the major panics of the Burning Times hit in the mid-16th century, the Malleus came into its own. It was the most detailed discussion of Witchcraft around. Many civil courts were handling Witch trials for the first time. They had no idea how to proceed, and so they latched onto the Malleus' recommendations gladly. By the end of the 16th century, other Witch hunting manuals eclipsed the Malleus. But at the beginning of the crazes, it did have an enormous impact.

#4: The Theories

You also have to take the Malleus' theories with a grain of salt. As I've said, Kramer's views were condemned by the Inquisition. They certainly don't represent the official view of the Church of the 15th century.

If you compare the Malleus to other Witch-hunting manuals, you can see how unique its theories are. Kramer's sexual hang-ups shine through like a super nova. I mean, there are seven entire chapters on all the awful things Witches can do to penises, and Kramer apparently thought that it was quite common for men to wake up and discover that their Virile Member had walked off in the middle of the night... The book's sexism is also extreme. Most manual profer sexist explanations for why the majority of Witches are women. But none are as virulently misogynist as the Malleus.

The theology is also primitive. Read the Malleus closely, and you'll notice that many of the "traditional" bits of Witch lore are missing. There are no sabbats. No covens. No Witches' marks. Many of the Witchcraft stereotypes we're familiar with developed in the 16th century. By comparing the Malleus (1484) to, say, the Compendium Maleficarum (1608), you can see how much beliefs changed during the height of the panics.

************

That's the history of the Malleus, in brief. Now for a review:

The Malleus is dreadfully dull reading. It's long, confusing, and dry, "enlivened" only by occasional shocking bits of misogyny and bigotry. So before you read it, I encourage you to ask yourself why you're bothering.

Is it to learn what Witch hunting was like? Well, the Malleus won't tell you. You're better off reading trial records or pamphlet accounts of individual trials. (Which you can find in books like _Witchcraft in England_ by Barbara Rosen, or Alan Kors' _Witchcraft in Europe, 1100 - 1700_.)

Do you want to learn what the Church taught about Witches? Again, the Malleus won't help you. You need to read tons of material to understand the Church's responses (or, more sensibly, you can read scholarly summaries of the debate).

The Malleus will help you if:

a) You want to get a feel for what a Witch hunting manual was like. b) You want to understand the origins of some of the later stereotypes. c) You want some shocking quotations (the Malleus is chock-full of them...)

The big thing to remember, however, is that the Malleus does not give an accurate picture of what Witch hunting was like. It's an extreme, radical text, and gives a very distorted view of life in the Burning Times.


2,877 posted on 07/28/2010 2:42:00 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: caww; Mad Dawg; Deo volente; dsc; wagglebee; metmom; Natural Law; narses
1. Who exactly are you quoting from? You quote a subjective text without ownership from mtc.org (Mission to Catholics.org, a site not necessarily known for it's truth)
2. You quote a site quoting Dollinger. Which Dollinger and in which book does he quote what the site you are quoting, quotes?
3. Remember, I gave you IMPARTIAL websites (Spanish statistics, Encyclopedia Britannica, reviews by impartial observers), in return you quote from wtc. org and can't name the places where these false pastors lead you astray (as an aside -- if they lie to you about history and quotations from secular sources, think how much your pastors lie to you about Christ and the scriptures and the bible!)
4. You next quote the wtc on Will Durant. Where EXACTLY does Will Durant quote what the site you are quoting (which is hardly an impartial site, mind you), says it is quoting from?

I would like to see actual quotations from ACTUAL historians, not the mangled opinions of the wtc website on what it thinks those authors said.
2,878 posted on 07/28/2010 3:03:14 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: caww; Dr. Eckleburg; Natural Law; Mad Dawg; dsc; don-o; narses; Deo volente
Again -- sources for your quotes on opinions by people? Real, historical sources? And do note that there was a Virgina pastor who portrayed himself as a Spanish priest and he did this in the 1700s..... quite AFTER the Inquisitions heyday....

you do realise how much lies the pastors etc. outside The Apostolic Church have been feeding you. Historical lies and scriptural and doctrinal lies.

And, the beauty of it, is that the more you repeat it, the more lurkers will see how false are all the tirades against orthodoxy.
2,879 posted on 07/28/2010 3:06:11 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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To: Cvengr; Deo volente
So, why exactly does scripture say:
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
and here's the KJV version:
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
and the KJV goes on to say

21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

From that time forth -- meaning at least some days onwards, wouldn't you say?
2,880 posted on 07/28/2010 3:09:27 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit)
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