Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Okay. Prayer is a commodity which comes in limited and measurable amounts. So if I pray to Mary, I am depriving God of prayer.
I say otherwise. I say whether I pray to God, to any of the individual persons of the Trinity, or ask Mary for her prayers, or ask you for your prayers, I am always praying in the Spirit, and the Spirit in me.
Prayer is not a measurable thing to be meted out in quanta. It is entering into the presence of God, being drawn by God into the life of the Trinity and the perpetual self-giving of each of the persons of the Trinity to each other.
Can I get an A-MEN?
;-)
Thanks.
It matters WHO is being prayed to.
I’m not greatly perturbed by your navigating such double binds . . .
Proddys experience something similar in trying to nail the jellow of the rabid cliques’ postings down.
Beyond that, I’ll have to ponder more.
Thx.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
Please refrain from personalizing your vitriolic responses. I have not said anything concerning what you believe.
I have posted snippets of what what Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri has written, St. Louis de Montfort has written, and Pope Paul VI has written concerning the worship of Mary. If you wish to deny their beliefs, or to deny they are true Catholics, it is up to you.
As an afterthought, JPII’s motto “Totus Tuus” to Mary doesn’t leave much room for Jesus does it?
BTW do you have any idea how many “true Catholics” there are in this world? That is, those “true Catholics” who believe and practice their Catholicism according to your standards?
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
I’ve grown to think of the personally harshly assaultive vitriol as more evidence of the bone marrow level idolatry involved.
Time devoted to Mary is time taken away from God.
Every adoration directed towards Mary is adoration taken away from God.
Every prayer to Mary is one less prayer to God.
You can’t add Mary to the mix without diminishing that which rightly belongs to God.
Catholics want to worship/venerate/adore/ whatever Mary? That is their right. Even God isn’t going to stop them. But there’s no point in pretending that it somehow doesn’t adversely affect one’s relationship to God Himself because it has to. You can’t divide your time or worship both at once.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
Whhatever we can imagine God might do for us in Love, our imagination is insufficient. Once one accepts this, devotional language becomes almost inevitably excessive, since grace is not only shaken down and pressed together, but is also running over.
Sorry, Bro. Even for you, I don’t think that cuts it.
It won’t cut it standing before God The Father . . . nor the Son . . . nor even before Mary herself.
It is interesting that the distinction was developed in 1270 and we are to accept that is was a practice and belief from the time of the Apostles. So much for “TRADITION”.
A certain example of the
rubbery history,
rubbery calendar,
rubbery logic,
rubbery dictionary
etc. etc. etc.
ALL THE MORE REASONS TO
INSURE
THAT THE FOCUS IS EXCLUSIVELY ON FATHER, SON, SPIRIT
ONLY.
To extrapolate your argument to the absurd, wouldn't you be better off praying to God instead of beseeching your fellow Freepers?
I will give the Vatican translators the benefit of believing the English words "worship", "devotion" and "veneration" (all valid definitions of cultus) are included in their vocabulary and the choice of "worship" was deliberate.
The fact is Latin is not the native language of any Pope, Bishop, Priest, or any of the Vatican Staff. The "pure" Latin documents from the Vatican are necessarily a translation from another language.
Does this mean, since all "official" Vatican Latin documents are a translation of a translation none of them can be trusted? :-)
We do not know how to pray as we ought (says Paul sometime after Jesus taught the Lord’s prayer) but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.
We are united to one another, in the same Spirit. It is the Spirit which makes us members of the Body of Christ. it is in the Spirit that my appeals to members of the body to join me in prayer and the appeals of those who appeal as James says they should are heard.
Yeah. transfinite arithmetic is the thing. You all talk like God is finite and prayer is a commodity.
I am learning SO MUCH!
Wanna say what’s wrong with it? I’m open.
Actually, I’m going to check out the inside of my eyelids for a while and then go the papist conventicle to engage in abominations. But I’ll be back before I turn in.
Jellow? And Jow are Jou? I think some of us gotta try every once in a while to act like grownups (a task certainly beyond me, but I can fake it.)
But, once translated, isn’t the Latin version considered the, as it were, standard to which all others should be compared? It’s the language in which the technical vocabulary and all the nice distinctions are — what’s the word I want — established, I thought.
I don’t know as much about this stuff as I should.
Western hat-tip ; )
How indeed to we trust (know how to know what we think we know?) Epistemology make my (sparse) hair hurt, sometimes. I seem to recall some wag once saying that history is just one "damned thing" after another. And, the "victors" write a great deal of the history. As I Southron, I am aware and sensitive of that fact.
I have spent most of my life reading old documents. As a Conservative, and to satisfy my logical bend, I must satisfy myself of the record first.
Yet, a complete dismissal of church history because of suspected and even proved frauds is throwing out the baby with the bath water.
And there FRiend, is where we will inevitably part. When one cannot trust the stewardship of anyone or any organization, due to the evidence of bald faced manipulation of documentation pursuant to the second part, what would make one likely to accept their authority at all? Simple logic says to retire to the documents of the first part, wherein the offending parties have had no real participation, in which to manipulate anything...
If you caught a contractor lying to you in the course of a job, for what reason would you continue to believe his work is of quality? It makes no sense at all. One would naturally revert to the original contract, and if the contractor cannot abide within it's terms, the contractor would be dismissed, and probably with great prejudice.
Hence the particular need to go back to the original contract(s), and therefore, sola-scriptura... And in the light of the Scriptures alone, the priesthood falls away... The hierarchy falls away, the Mass/Eucharist falls away... Praying to saints falls away...Mariology falls away... the Christian calendar falls away... the Christian sabbath falls away...
All the better to see God.
Claims to historicity do about as well with me as when Mormons ask me to "feeeel" my way through their blasphemous book. That just ain't how this game is played.
[...]spoke not only to the "mere facts" but also to the way the church was conscious of itself as a continuation of what the what Christ established on this earth and was very vigilant to guard against the perversion of the truth.
I appreciate your walk in faith, but I will not follow. If the things you say are true, then there should be evidence thereof in the original contract(s). There simply is not any such evidence.
Throughout the Bible, God's main argument, all the way along, is that He gives man a means to worship Him, but that man continues to bolt on stuff that He never sanctioned.
From the women weeping for Tammuz in God's own Temple, all the way to the Nicolaitans in the Revelation, the concept is ALWAYS the same: "Worship God in spirit and in truth..." Yet in nearly every instance, that doesn't happen BECAUSE of hierarchy, because of corrupt priesthoods, and teaching the people lies.
It is only natural, therefore, to be suspicious of such as these.
Perhaps the intent is to get the thread banned. :-)
I am including a response which I believe is very personal and which could have prompted a ping to the Religion Moderator if I were the type who cried crocodile tears at every supposed "personal" insult.
narses to OLD REGGIE
” St. Louis de Montfort does it all. “
For those who worship him, maybe. For true Catholics, not so much. You really are having a hard time understanding a basic truth, Catholic’s believe the Dogmatic truthes taught by the Church. We have shared with you and the UFO cultists and other assorted apostates, heretics and random sinners the FACT that we Catholics worship the Triune God and NO ONE and NOTHING else.
That you persist in telling us, and others, LIES about what we believe and what we have told you again and again what we believe removes any chance of a benign or charitable explanation for your conduct. For the sake of your own soul, stop telling those lies. Beg Our Lord for forgiveness, He is a Merciful God, I will join my prayers with yours on your behalf.
THANKS.
Though given the pressures on him, I try and avoid pinging JimRob more than once a year or so.
And, given how much the RM reads the threads normally, I try and avoid pinging him as much as possible. He’ll get to what’s needed in due course even if I say nothing . . . almost always.
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