Absolutely, and to my sorrow there are plenty on my side who play rough. I don't know how they rationalize it.
Clearly there are differences of opinion. But here's what I'm trying to talk about. I have a devotion to Mary. I am about to be "consecrated to Mary" in about 6 weeks. There's some preparation, most of which is VERY Christocentric by the way.
Now I entirely get that that seems like a disastrously misplace latria (therefore "Mariolatry") to many.
Fine. Really, that's fine. We have disagreements. That is at least part of why we are here. And to some extent I "get" it. I thought the same about Catholicism once.
On both sides there are those who abuse discourse. But I am talking about the mariolatry thing. I am not troubled greatly that people disagree. But what seems "abusive" to me is the repeated charge, again and again, sometimes in bold and or colored type, that we are idolaters.
Clearly we disagree. DO people who make the charge really think they will somehow change our minds merely by repeating the charge or by saying how shocked they are?
Recently I was arguing for Catholic teaching on homosexuality. My antagonists said I was offensive. I can see how if one were homosexual it would be offensive to hear that the Church thinks it's an objective moral disorder.
But if we're going to discuss it, can we move beyond giving and receiving offense and look at the issue and the arguments? If they just call me homophobic, it won't change my mind. If they lace personal characterizations or characterizations throughout their arguments, I won't read their arguments.
So what are they doing? What is their goal? What do they think they will accomplish?
Similarly with "maryolatry". Okay. You all think it's very bad. We think it's very good. Are we just going to yell "Bad!" "Good!" at each other? What will come of that? Can anything really good come of it?
Now you say that you simply will not, cannot come to our side. That's sad (and do PLEASE try to get right what we say - more on that later).
Okay. So is calling each other names going to bring us to your side, or you to ours? Is it going to bring any good thing?
We are called to preach the Gospel of Grace, and be instant, in season and out. If it sounds devisive to you, it is. It's the power of Christ, to those who believe.
Again I say you are too limited in your reading of Paul. I won't quote the passage again. But I just note that he talks about other ways he proclaimed the Gospel, without confrontation, without abuse, but with real, thoughtful, careful, deliberate, and patient reaching out to others, not driving them off, but trying to bring them in.
I do not think just shrieking "maryolatry, pope, purgatory," etc over and over again will do anything good.
What it seems like from here is that people do not know what we think, teach, and do. They form a caricature in their mind. They insist that we believe something other than what we believe, do something other than what we do, and teach something other than what we teach. They insist that they know more about Catholicism than we do.
And then, when they attack our positions, they miss. They aren't attacking where we stand but where their bad information leads them to think we stand.
And then they blame us for not being where they thought we were.
And you want to believe that humility, and gentleness and love will solve this problem?
Actually I believe Jesus alone can solve this problem, through the operation of the Holy Spirit.
Humility without the Strength of the Truth is a false humility. Gentleness without the Truth is powerlessness. And Love without THE TRUTH is not LOVE. It is deceitful.
And any virtue which one tries to cobble together for oneself is false and weak. Clearly the first thing to do in such a situation is to pray to Him who is the Truth for true humility and true love.
But many on your side say things I know to be false about me and about Catholicism, and then ask me to believe that they are being so aggressive because they have the truth.
I say, if they are faithless in little things, like finding out what we actually believe and do, and why, how can I expect them to be faithful and true in Big things?
It is not that they disagree with us about whether what we do is right or wrong. It is that they attack it without knowing what it is. The simplest conclusion -- I am not saying it is the right one -- is that they love attacking more than they love truth.
The Catholic Church tells us there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. And yet, no one in the Catholic Church will tell us what you truly believe. You want us believe we MUST be saved through the Catholic Church and yet no one from the Church tells us the truth about what she believes? Does that make sense? As a proddy, what would your reaction be?
as far as Maryolatry, purgatory, prayers for the dead, and the Mass, those are differences that can never be overcome. In the same way you would never leave them, we would never accept them. It's just a true statement.
So, what's left to come together on, exactly? You have a faith that will NOT be moved. We have a faith that will NOT be moved.
Maybe like the old joke about numbered jokes . . .
we could number the epithets! LOL.
“!!!1!!!! to you, you soundral of a !!!3!!!”
replied to by a
“Well a drippingly awful !!!5!!! to you, you !!!7.4!!!!”
I don’t think any of us has very serious fantasies about influencing any of the regulars on the other side toward our side, hereon.
We are playing to the peanut galleries.
And that’s OK with me.
I do NOT, as I think you know, believe that ALL RC’S worship Mary.
I DO believe it’s horribly more common and more spiritually devastatingly more common than you seem to remotely be close to believing.
And that’s OK with me.
I seriously do feel some serious compunction in spirit, heart, mind to scream as vividly about that, as I can as often as I can. It’s not, a personal thing—it’s an issue/practice/dogma/Scripture thing.
Of course if folks in the rabid cliques and/or other RC’s are going to take that exceedingly personally and offensively, that will have to be their problem—unless and until the cocklebur in their saddle over it fosters some change—however unlikely.