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Sometimes I get the impression that you all think it’s a great surprise to us that a lot of priests and a significant number of bishops are dopes, and worse.

No, we're not surprised that you are aware of it. Nor are we surprised that Catholics for the most part, won't even acknowledge it.

It sure would be nice to hear many of your fellow Catholics recognize it. A simple, *Yup, the Catholic church history is nothing to brag about. They were wrong.* would go a long way.

Of course, I doubt that many would go as far as saying they were doing what they could to fix it and try to get it back on track, not wanting to wear the label of *reformer*.

The last group of people trying to fix up the RCC didn't fare so well at its hands.

It sure would be nice to hear many of your fellow Catholics recognize it. A simple, *Yup, the Catholic church history is nothing to brag about. They were wrong.* would go a long way.

Well, it helps if you look.

Read the Divine Comedy. Note the number of Popes in hell. Then tell me Dante thinks we're all as pure as the driven slush. Learn the history of the Patroness of the Lay Dominicans, Catherine of Siena and her not so gentle application of the toe of her boot the the hindquarters of the then pope. We celebrate her for that -- and how could we do so if we were not confronting the scandal of impotent popes and the Avignon captivity?

But on the other hand, read about Bartolome de las Casas and the other Dominicans who fought for the right of Los Indios to govern themselves even if they weren't Christians -- and then compare and contrast that history with the common notion that ALL the feelthy papists came to the new world to convert with the sword if necessary.

IMHO the Church is the huge steaming pile of , um, fertilizer, which produces WONDERFUL flowers -- often in the most unexpected places, times, and ways.

If from my contribution over HERE, a beautiful rose grows over there, I'm a happy guy.

No matter the centuries of corruption of Popes and priests, no matter the Inquisitions, no matter the justifications of “Sainthood” for murders like the pagan emperor Constantine, no matter anything: “The Catholic Church is Christ's Holy and Apostolic Church and God will never abandon His Church”.

Being aware of or acknowledging the history of corruption means nothing because the corruption means nothing, The Church is THE CHURCH, right?
The lesson of the nation of Israel has been missed entirely.

Of course, I doubt that many would go as far as saying they were doing what they could to fix it and try to get it back on track, not wanting to wear the label of *reformer*.

The last group of people trying to fix up the RCC didn't fare so well at its hands.

Sometimes the work I have to do clearing away the cobwebs of falsehood quite overwhelms my efforts to move forward.

Benedict of Nursia was a reformer. Dominic was a reformer, as was Francis, as were Catherine of Siena and Bernard of Clairvaux, and a host of others. John XXIII and Paul VI began reforms, which JPII solidified and BenXVI is carrying forward and taking up a notch.

Pope Saint Pius V was a reformer. Throughout the almost 800 years of Dominican history there is rising and falling and being reformed. Lacordaire was a reformer. I could go on and on!

It's just silly to say that because we don't agree with every thing calling itself 'reform' we are against either the word or the reality of reform in the Church.

I think this was merely a cheap shot, unless it was prompted by ignorance of Church history and the result of being victimized by Protestant propaganda, of which there is a very great deal.