On intemperate and indiscreet zeal. (The Primary Fault of many Religion Forum posters)

Various | Various | Various

[Elsie]

http://www.prophecykeepers.com/hunbatz-men.html

[svcw]

25,000

[T Minus Four]

This is your brain. This is your brain on peyote and those little mushrooms. And don’t bogart the peace pipe.

[MarkBsnr]

Ok, fair enough. I see more every time I read the gospels, like a flower unfolding :-)

Very good. See? Knowing Scripture and being able to quote it in in context really is a Catholic thing. :)

[MarkBsnr]

So now if one communed aka talked to someone they are communist weird!

I admit that Joseph Smith and his Heavenly Father doctrines are weird. I just don't know that they are communist weird. That's why I asked the question in the first place.

[greyfoxx39]

I don’t see the point in mugging Mormons.

So, posting the actual doctrines of mormonism and the words of mormon leaders is in your opinion, "mugging"!

Let me point out one single factor.

Mormon leaders and many of its members HIDE the actual practices, doctrines and beliefs of mormonism from the general public while sending out over 50,000 missionaries worldwide every single day to present a whitewashed, incomplete, lying message to unsuspecting contacts, many of whom are Christians. They tell these Christians that mormonism is the ONLY way to salvation, in effect "mugging" the Christian in HIS belief.

Now, if the mormon message were open and truthful as to the doctrines and practices it would be unnecessary to present this information generally and on FR specifically.

Let me ask you, what do YOU personally know of mormon belief? Contrast that with what you may know of Catholic, Protestant or even Evangelical belief.

I can almost guarantee that probably 90% of Christians on FR know very little about mormon doctrine and practices, but have bought into the "poor persecuted mormon" meme that has been a staple of the religion for 180 years.

This is a good start for the 90% to read before FReepers start accusing other FReepers of being "muggers". You will see the the "mugging" that takes place is that of Christianity being mugged by mormonism.

Plan of Salvation summary from lds.org

Premortal Life

Before we were born on the earth, we lived in the presence of our Heavenly Father as one of His spirit children. In this premortal existence, we attended a council with Heavenly Father's other spirit children. At that council, Heavenly Father presented His great plan of happiness (see Abraham 3:22–26).

In harmony with the plan of happiness, the premortal Jesus Christ, the Firstborn Son of the Father in the spirit, covenanted to be the Savior (see Moses 4:2; Abraham 3:27). Those who followed Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were permitted to come to the earth to experience mortality and progress toward eternal life. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and "sought to destroy the agency of man" (Moses 4:3). He became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privileges of receiving a physical body and experiencing mortality (see Moses 4:4; Abraham 3:27–28).

Throughout our premortal lives, we developed our identity and increased our spiritual capabilities. Blessed with the gift of agency, we made important decisions, such as the decision to follow Heavenly Father's plan. These decisions affected our life then and now. We grew in intelligence and learned to love the truth, and we prepared to come to the earth, where we could continue to progress.

Mortal Life

We are now experiencing mortal life. Our spirits are united with our bodies, giving us opportunities to grow and develop in ways that were not possible in premortal life. This part of our existence is a time of learning in which we can prove ourselves, choose to come unto Christ, and prepare to be worthy of eternal life. It is also a time when we can help others find the truth and gain a testimony of the plan of salvation.

Life after Death

When we die, our spirits will enter the spirit world and await the resurrection. At the time of the resurrection, our spirit and body will reunite, and we will be judged and received into a kingdom of glory. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion and our obedience to the Lord's commandments (see Kingdoms of Glory). It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Blessings through Knowledge of the Plan

A testimony of the plan of salvation can give us hope and purpose as we wrestle with the challenges of life. We can find reassurance in the knowledge that we are children of God and that we lived in His presence before being born on the earth. We can find meaning in our present life, knowing that our actions during mortality influence our eternal destiny. With this knowledge, we can base important decisions on eternal truths rather than on the changing circumstances of life. We can continually improve our relationships with family members, rejoicing in the promise that our families can be eternal. We can find joy in our testimonies of the Atonement and the Lord's commandments, ordinances, covenants, and doctrines, knowing that "he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come" (D&C 59:23).

Now, I suggest that these links be investigated:

The Redemption of the Dead

Some faithful individuals are blessed with the Second Comforter while remaining in mortality

Perdition and the Three Degrees of Glory

Doctrine and Covenants 76:30-112; 131:1-4

 

Eternal Habitation	Verse	Actions/Works	Consequences
Perdition (no Kingdom or Glory)	31	Known & partaken of God’s power
	31	Suffered selves to be overcome by devil
	31	Deny the truth and defy God’s power
	33		Vessels of wrath
	33		Doomed to suffer wrath of God
	34		No forgiveness in this world/world to come
	35	Denied Holy Spirit after receiving it
	35	Denied Only Begotten Son
	35	Crucified Son unto themselves, to an open shame
	36		Go into lake of fire/brimstone w/ devil and angels
	37		Only ones whom second death shall have any power
	38		Not be redeemed in due time of the Lord
	48		The end, width, height, depth and misery none understand
Celestial Kingdom	51	Received testimony of Jesus
	51	Believed in Christ’s name
	51	Baptized in water in his name
	52	Keep commandments
	52		Washed and cleanses from sins
	52	Receive the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands by one ordained
	52, 53	Sealed by power of the Spirit
	53	Overcome by faith
	53		Holy Spirit shed on them
	54		The Church of the Firstborn
	55		Father gives all things into their hands
	56		Are priests and kings
	56		Received of God’s fullness and glory
	57		Priests after the order of the Only Begotten Son
	58		They are gods/sons of God
	59		All things are theirs
	60		Shall overcome all things
	62		Shall dwell in God’s and Christ’s presence forever
	63		Shall come with Christ to reign over the earth
	64		Have part in the first resurrection
	65		Come forth in resurrection of the just
	66		Have come unto Mount Zion, city of living God, holiest of all
	67		Come to general assembly and church of Enoch/Firstborn
	68		Names written in heaven
	69		Are just men made perfect through Jesus
	70		Bodies are celestial, glory as the glory of God
	131:2	Enter the new and everlasting covenant of marriage	Enter into highest heaven/degree in celestial kingdom
	131:3-4	Does not enter into covenant	Cannot have an increase
Terrestrial Kingdom	72	Died without the law
	73	Spirits kept in prison
	74	Received testimony of Christ in spirit world
	75	Honorable men of the earth
	75	Blinded by craftiness of men
	76		Received glory but not fullness
	77	Received presence of Son, but not the Father
	78		Bodies are terrestrial
	79	Not valiant in the testimony of Jesus	Obtain not crown over kingdom of God
Telestial Kingdom	82	Received not gospel of Christ
	82	Received not testimony of Jesus
	83	Deny not the Holy Spirit
	84		Thrust down to hell
	85		Not redeemed from devil till Christ has finished his work
	86	Received not of Christ’ fullness in eternal world
	86	Received Holy Spirit through ministration of the terrestrial
	88	Receive the administering of angels
	88	Heirs of salvation
	89		Telestial surpasses all understanding
	99-100	Those who are  some of one and some of another
	102		Not be gathered with the saints, church of the Firstborn
	103	Are liars, adulterers, whoremongers, loves and makes lies
	104		Suffered wrath of God on earth
	105		Suffer the vengeance of eternal fire
	106		Suffer the wrath of God until fullness of times
	109		Were as innumerable as the stars
	112		Be servants of God
	112		Cannot go where God and Christ dwell

 

Perdition and the Three Degrees of Glory

[MarkBsnr]

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/holy-ghost.htm

This is where Joseph Smith got his visions: the Amanita muscaria mushroom mixed with wine.

[Mad Dawg]

It's interesting that all this comes up in a thread about intemperance and excess.

It's important to distinguish between calling an action a mugging and calling those who do the action muggers. For one thing, the second is prohibited by the rules of the forum, if directed at an individual. For another, I don't know you guys; I don't know if you're muggers.

They tell these Christians that mormonism is the ONLY way to salvation, in effect "mugging" the Christian in HIS belief.

As I said to another, do two wrongs make a right? They mug us, so we can mug them? "You did not so learn Christ," I'd venture to say.

Finally, it's unclear to me what the 'end', the purpose of all this is. Is it to assist Mormons to see the error of their ways? Is it to show them the love and peace of the true Gospel? Does anybody think a Mormon will be led to consider coming to Christ by harshness?

When our Lord invited the Twelve to become fishers of men, did He really mean that they should toss dynamite into the sea and pick up those they stunned and bruised?

[ejonesie22]

It would explain why the Angel that came to see him had an Italian name...

[greyfoxx39]

I am impressed by the "zeal" expressed in your comments in trashing the judgment, efforts and character of other FReepers.

I predict we will all profit from the "temperance, prudence and justice" that have been so "charitably" shared in your descriptions.

I'm SURE that this description, "This is cloaked by an adopted attitude which might be articulated as "Extremism in the defense of MY view of the Gospel is no vice." could not possibly be applied to the views stated in your post, right?

[T Minus Four]

Ok, you can be snide if it makes you feel better. You yourself we weren’t going there in front of the LDS, but be my guest.

[T Minus Four]

This is where Joseph Smith got his visions: the Amanita muscaria mushroom mixed with wine

So do we know that for sure or is it a specualation? We Inmams try to only post things that are backed up by the Mormon's own writings or historical facts.

[SZonian]

You’re taking that “out of context” and the “apostle” was only “giving HIS opinion, he was NOT talking for the church”! /s

Is that about right?

[T Minus Four]

Knowing Scripture and being able to quote it in in context really is a Catholic thing. :)

...and FWIW, Satan himself is quite adroit at quoting scripture.

[T Minus Four]

This is a good start for the 90% to read before FReepers start accusing other FReepers of being "muggers". You will see the the "mugging" that takes place is that of Christianity being mugged by mormonism

Bttt

[T Minus Four]

Oh. My. Heck.

I just clicked on your link in that post about the "second comforter". When will I stop being surprised at what nonsense the LDS Church teaches?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Lurkers/posters - a learning lesson has been granted to all of us. This is a reminder me of the political scene today when Truth is revealed - stop it at all cost.

Lol. Are you performing for imaginary lurkers too?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

So why address this to me - YOU are making this VERY PERSONAL.

You seem to be the captain of the "thin-skinned". My advice to you would be to get over yourself. :-)

[SZonian]

"Finally, it's unclear to me what the 'end', the purpose of all this is. Is it to assist Mormons to see the error of their ways? Is it to show them the love and peace of the true Gospel? Does anybody think a Mormon will be led to consider coming to Christ by harshness?"

Some do "see the error of their ways", others not so much. Some, like myself, sometimes need a good knocking about to shake the cobwebs loose.

Just sayin' as an ex-mo who was "led to consider coming to Christ by harshness" by the very ones here on FR who bear the full fury and vilification heaped upon them by some of those here on FR who profess to be Christian.

[T Minus Four]