On intemperate and indiscreet zeal. (The Primary Fault of many Religion Forum posters)

Various | Various | Various

[Logophile]

Below is one of many in the Mormon organization who claim salvation is thru Joseph Smith”.....he is not the Christian Christ and the Christian Christ does not share His throne with any man who claims Godhead. This is a lie and an attempt to de-throne Christ.

Quote: There is “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. ....for he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

My Post 1471 provides the entire quotation, including the parts you omitted. It does not claim that Joseph Smith is Christ. Nor does it suggest that we want to de-throne Christ. The notion is preposterous.

[Logophile]

You stated that "I did not intend to answer your question". Truth is I did - several times. You apparently couldn't handle the answer.

Alas, then your answer was too obscure for me.

Ah, but no mistakes were ever proven logos,

Ah, but would you ever admit you had made a mistake?

[presently no screen name]

the trinitarian concept is not given in the Bible

Yes it is! Study The Word - it's not a book just to pick Scriptures from.

[Alamo-Girl]

For the discussion, my three favorite verses which speak to the Trinity:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. – Isaiah 9:6

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19

God's Name is I AM

[caww]

I will stand on what I stated and go one step further so as to make my point very clear.....Mormons follow, worship and serve a counterfeit Christianity whose head is not the Christian Christ rather the master impersonator. The organization claims Christianity and Christ as it's own in order to bait and hook unsuspecting members to it's organization by their mascarade.

Additionally once the members have been well indoctrinated via their false teachings and the various required rituals, (which have their roots in satanic Freemasonry and their founder Joseph Smith who has been proven to have been involved with many occult practices,) they are then taught specific ways and means on how to oppose those who would call them out. This too is part of their indoctrination.

Oftentimes their membership will debate within the guidelines they are taught and using the forms of verbiage which can be found on many of their websites.

Although most Mormons have a genuine belief they belong to Christ most who leave Mormonism discover that they do not. Their many testimonies attest to this and the freedom and joy they find when they finally commit their life to the Christ of Christianity.

Yes indeed Mormonism does attempt to dethrone Christ as well as God. Their literature, history and teachings attest to this for any who have researched and weighed the evidence.

[roamer_1]

For example, if I say, "God is love," a true statement according to Scripture, I unfortunately limit Him to my own concept of love, which is like comparing a candle to the sun.

I think that's pretty true.

That's not to say that the Eternal One is completely unknowable (I think Kabbalah sometimes goes too far in that respect, resulting in treating Ein Sof as a force rather than a Being), but that we have to be very careful in always acknowledging that all of our models will be flawed and fall short of the glory of God.

Also quite true, IMHO. I am not concerned with modeling or comparison. I think that is a natural form of outreach, an attempt at understanding.

It is when those models become DOGMA, and exclusionary... particularly when "ordained" without specific proofs... That is when it becomes unhealthy. The truth of the matter is simply put: WE DON'T KNOW.

God has provided us with the model that He prefers, primarily that of a Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. He did so for a purpose, and He obviously believes that what He has revealed is sufficient in parameter(s) to know Him. Now, I don't pretend to know how that works, because He didn't tell me. I am just thankful that He gave me a means to approach Him. I prefer to operate within that which He has provided. That is, I believe, worshiping in spirit and in truth - His primary instruction.

So it seems, if we stay within His provision, if we pray to the Father in the name of the Son (as priest), by the means of the Holy Spirit, you and I can kneel together before Him as brethren. That, friend, is not a false ecumenism.

I would note that my position is most similar to the Trinitarian model - But I will not deny a brother whose belief is in an hierarchical Godhead, as an instance. I have no legitimate proof to the contrary. We might have long arguments over the subject, but neither of us KNOWS.

Nevertheless, you might be interested in the model I present in post #1358, which draws from both sides of my heritage. It is far from a perfect model, but it does help in explaining Yeshua's claim to be "from" the Father.

An excellent analogy. And I note that it was framed as such: An analogy. : )

Shalom to you too.

[Quix]

Fitting points.

[ejonesie22]

Well put.

[presently no screen name]

St, A.L.C.O. Holic.

Is he the patron saint of alcoholics?

Was he from the time of Christ? Never heard of him.

Yes, I know it well - had to say it every day. One holy catholic apostolic church. Don't remember the universal - perhaps that was added later.

once one gets over the hurdle of

Praise God, it wasn't much of a hurdle for me. Once I heard The TRUTH - I knew immediately. Of course, it took some time to kill the sacred cows taught to me over and over and over. But Praise God for that, also. Renewing my mind according to HIS WORD that HE tells us to do was the answer. Thank you, JESUS, for Your Word!

[Quix]

I’ve seen

1307; 1310 and similar before.

I haven’t read every word.

I’ve read enough to be convinced that yet again . . .

such documentation is an

UTTER FAIL

in all it’s objectives hereon.

[Quix]

IIRC, I did read it. Many sections more than once.

I think I have said off and on hereon over the years . . . I agree greatly with such perspectives . . .

just not 100% to the exclusion of any other, all other aspects or perspectives on such issues.

I think, personally,

I have a much MORE ROBUST undertanding of

—LOVE,
—HUMILITY,
—COMPASSION,
—TENDERNESS,
—GENTLENESS,
—MEEKNESS,

and the like

than lots of folks could imagine.

Thankfully, God knows me.

Though all the world call me a liar,

God knows better than that.

PRAISE HIS NAME FOR THAT.

Sigh.

[Quix]

I’d think

a number of people were seriously ill

IF

I didn’t get accused harshly of a list of things almost daily.

LOL.

Sigh.

[Quix]

Why would the lds church cover up smith’s polygamy for years and years?

Why has Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith’s drinking and use of tobacco?

Why do the Mormons’ official publications remove all references to Joseph Smith’s activities as a professional con man?

---

INDEED.

AS I think I’ve mentioned a number of times . . .

My best man’s great grandfather had the farm across the fence from Joseph Smith in Palmyra NY.

[presently no screen name]

Thank you, AG!

I don't think The Trinity could be taught much clearer than this.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19

[Quix]

Sounds like a lot of RC literature about Mary.

Sheesh!

[Quix]

For the discussion, my three favorite verses which speak to the Trinity:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. – Isaiah 9:6

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19

---

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

NEED TO ADD THOSE TO MY HOME PAGE.

THX.

[Diamond]

Why would the lds church cover up smith's polygamy for years and years?

Why has Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith's drinking and use of tobacco?

Why do the Mormons' official publications remove all references to Joseph Smith's activities as a professional con man?

Zugzwang!

White to move:

(with apologies to Aron Nimzowitsch)

[xzins]

The concept of self-distinction means that the differentiation of identity belongs to the one being discussed. Therefore, the 1/2/3 persons of the Trinity each know their own self-distinction. I am not in charge of that. At the same time, it gets me in touch with the reality that there IS a self-distinction. The Unity has a self-distinction as well, which is how the 2d person subjects to the 1st person in 1 Co 15:

24then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- 25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- 26the last enemy is done away -- death; 27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, 28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

My understanding is that Christ subjects Himself to God, and that the person of the Father is a primacy in understanding the tri-unity.

[xzins]

But, you have just agreed that the discussion goes all the way back to (in your words) “around 400.”

Jerome’s Vulgate was when? So the discussion goes back ‘til then. In fact, the discussion goes back to the earliest appearance of the discussion of the Trinity, which was current with Tertullian, so therefore, must have preceded even him.

[presently no screen name]

I haven’t read every word. I’ve read enough to be convinced that yet again . . .such documentation is an UTTER FAIL

How right you are, Quix. I didn't read every word either - I just grabbed ONE of their 'oral teaching proofs' at random that was posted there... and see what they have done with God's Word to fit their need.

God's Word as It Is Written....(Paul Defends His Ministry)
Gal 1:11-12 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

VS.

What Dr. Brian Kopp posted under his "I. The Word of God is Transferred Orally". banner.
Gal. 1:11-12 - the Gospel which is "preached" (not read) to me is not a man's Gospel, but the Revelation of Jesus Christ.


First of all, Paul said 'was preached BY me' and Brian/RCC version is 'is preached TO me'. Changed the BY me to TO me. And WAS to IS. Every version of this Scripture has it in past tense except the Brian/RCC version.

Secondly - they imply that 'those revelations' given to Paul where not include in his writings.

As if God would keep anything back from us and HE didn't include EVERYTHING we need to know in HIS Word.

That truly is the 'Eve' mentality - something was HELD BACK, she didn't have it ALL. We know where she got that thought from.

There is nothing new under the sun. Satan's only weapon is deception and they fell for it hook, line and sinker and continue to do what satan started and trying to grab others through deception.