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Posted on 07/06/2010 6:54:33 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
That's more or less the point of Maimonides and the students of Kabbalah when they posit that God can only be described by negation. That is, He is so different than what we know that we cannot say what He is, only what He isn't. For example, if I say, "God is love," a true statement according to Scripture, I unfortunately limit Him to my own concept of love, which is like comparing a candle to the sun.
That's not to say that the Eternal One is completely unknowable (I think Kabbalah sometimes goes too far in that respect, resulting in treating Ein Sof as a force rather than a Being), but that we have to be very careful in always acknowledging that all of our models will be flawed and fall short of the glory of God.
Nevertheless, you might be interested in the model I present in post #1358, which draws from both sides of my heritage. It is far from a perfect model, but it does help in explaining Yeshua's claim to be "from" the Father.
Shalom.
Define "persons," if you would please.
Shalom.
Do you hold that any of the Three Persons are in some sense NOT God?
At the risk of being wordy, I'll quote the relevant section of the Athanasian Creed:
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
I happen to agree. Yeshua calls out the Nicolaitans and false prophetess, warns Ephesus that they're about to lose their lampstand, calls Sardis dead, and tells Laodicea that He's about to vomit them out of His mouth--but He still walks among all seven lampstands and holds all seven stars in His Hand.
Shalom.
That strikes me as consistent with St. Paul's comments about "being all thing to all men" that some may be saved.
Your meaning is not clear to me. Please clarify.
Nope. Just that the Son and Spirit are subordinate to and subsumed in the Father. Yeshua Himself said that He could do only what the Father showed Him, so the "coequal" part would be my major objection to the Athenasian Creed, but given that their primary concern was counteracting Arianism, I understand why they put it in there. Unfortunately, it happens to be Biblically inaccurate and isn't even fully consistant with the Nicene Creed.
One of the often missed titles of Messiah is the Eternal One's Arm: "To whom is the Arm of the LORD revealed?" and so on. It's a good illustration. My arm is of one essence with the rest of my body, but is dependent on it and subserviant to it (specifically, to my brain). The Son is of one essence with the Father, but is eternally generated from Him and subserviant to Him.
Shalom.
Exactly.
The Johannine Comma - 1 John 5:7-8 is hard to find before the 10th century... and then, it was a footnote. All other extent copies are basically 15th cent or later, AFAIR.
It is said that the Vaudois Bible has the verse, which would put it in the late first/early second century... but I do not know that to be true in fact. If it IS true, my objection would be less strenuous.
The Trinity cannot be defended from that verse.
Since the thread has advanced I have posted the original post at the end so you'll know what I am referencing.
Yes, I was greatly impressed as my brother shared these happenings, all were immensely impressed when the Pastors spoke as they did of how the church had left, found their own church, and this with the help of another denomination...that was unity in action against the foe who had entered their former church.
We are going to truly need one another as the days become more and more opposed to Christianity. These two denominations, though they have many differing styles of worship and such....knew what was at stake for all churches and paved the way so others might follow if that day comes...beautiful unity...doctrines etc. were not an issue....survival of the body of believers was and is now. (but I do not mean at all the world council of churchers, nor the push by the UN)
Original post: My brothers church recently left and now have a church of their own. Interesting is the Baptist church had helped them make this transition....and most interesting was in the dedication both denominations came together to celebrate...... As the Pastor spoke thanking the Baptist Minister the Baptist Minister was quick to say ......."It is not us to thank but we you.. for showing us how it's done if the time comes where we might have to do the same."
"Don't answer the question they ask, answer the question they should have asked." - Robert Millet
Mormon wiki notes -
On page 50 of the current missionary manual, Preach My Gospel, the section on The Fall reads:
"When first teaching this doctrine, do not teach everything you know about it. Explain very simply that God chose two of His children, Adam and Eve, to become the first parents on earth. After their transgression they were subject to both sin and death. By themselves they could not return to live with Heavenly Father. The Lord spoke to Adam and taught him the plan of salvation and redemption through the Lord Jesus Christ. By following that plan, Adam and his family could have joy in this life and return to live with God (See Alma 18:36; 22:12-14)."
Missionaries are in essence encouraged not to disclose that Mormons believe that The Fall is a wonderful and fortunate event, that the curses that followed are considered blessings, and that the action that Adam and Even committed is considered righteous, intelligent, and worth imitating.
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Person = Self Distinction...each person knows his own distinction
However, every attempt at explaining God is going to be subject to human limitation
and have your posting habits changed?
You did not read the article
Do you think I have been lying to you?
It seems to me that a simple yes or no would suffice.
No, you asked me to clarify what I said, which I did. Are you unable to work past the basics?
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