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Personal responsibility.

If our salvation depended on our fulfilling our "personal responsibilities," all men would be damned.

All men are under the curse of Adam. All men are sinners. All men "deserve" condemnation and eternal punishment.

Before the foundation of the world God mercifully chose for Himself, for His own glory and purpose, some men to redeem by the death and resurrection of His dear Son who has purchased their sins and paid for every one of them. These people, from all nations and races and eras, make up the family of God on earth. They have always been His.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" -- Eph. 1:4

Those men, through nothing in themselves, will, at a time of God's choosing, know their salvation has been won by Christ alone and believe in Him as Lord, God and Redeemer to the saving of their souls.

Therefore, all men are responsible for every sin they commit. But not all sins are paid for by Christ. Only the sins of His flock. The rest stand condemned in their sins which is exactly where they want to be.

So even if God allowed me no freedom of movement, nevertheless I accept personal responsibility for my own thoughts and deeds, confess my sins and repent.

There is NOTHING that differentiates me, a believer, from the non-believing murderer but the obedience and righteousness of Christ, mercifully imputed to me. It is HIS "personal responsibility" that saved me, all by grace alone.

As I said before, this grace brings with it a sorrow for our sins, a desire to repent, and a stronger intent to live a life through Christ that glorifies God.

And because God is all loving and holy, this results in a happier, more productive life for those who are His. Christianity is the epitome of mental well-being. 8~)

Before the foundation of the world God mercifully chose for Himself, for His own glory and purpose, some men to redeem by the death and resurrection of His dear Son who has purchased their sins and paid for every one of them. These people, from all nations and races and eras, make up the family of God on earth. They have always been His.

A-G, is this sufficiently deterministic for you or do you still wish to make your case that only atheists have deterministic views?

Thank you so much for sharing your testimony and insights, dear sister in Christ, and thank you for that beautiful Scripture!

The differences as I currently understand them after our dialogue last night:

The atheist strong determinist sees the universe as unfolding involuntarily with no first cause and no final cause. If a person knew the initial conditions and rules he could project every detail of the universe throughout time. Logically therefore to him the mind, soul and spirit are illusions only - epiphenomenons which are secondary phenomenons that can cause nothing to happen. The murderer is not personally responsible because the physical brain did it, involuntarily. To him, man is just an illusion in a movie being played out.

The Reformed determinist sees the universe as unfolding involuntarily with a first cause and a final cause, namely God's will. If a person knew the mind of God he could project every detail of the universe throughout time. To him the mind, soul and spirit are real and not illusions. Nevertheless they cannot cause anything to happen. The murderer and the Christian are both personally responsible because it is their nature to sin. To him, man is an actor in a movie being played out, he is real but has no freedom of movement at all.

My view is that predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive. And I point to prophecies and commandments throughout Scripture as evidence. I perceive God is the first cause and final cause of all that there is. And I perceive God's will includes freedom of movement both physical and mental. In my view, God knows every detail of the universe throughout time, but it is a dynamic not static universe. He certainly could disallow freedom of movement (static) but He has chosen not to do so (dynamic.) For instance, I perceive that Mary could have said "no thanks" but that Jesus would have been enfleshed nevertheless by other means.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. - Matthew 3:9

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. – Luke 19:40

To me the mind, soul and spirit are real and can cause things to happen. For that reason, both the murderer and the Christian are personally responsible for all their thoughts and deeds. The movie is being played out, the actors will follow the script but they may also ad lib within each scene to their own reward or peril. But no one and no thing can thwart the will of God.

Either way, the bottom line is:

To God be the glory, not man, never man.