Posted on 07/02/2010 6:56:08 PM PDT by Desdemona
I must take exception to kosta's statement. Man is made in the image of his Father. His spiritual faculties are in-built, part of his human nature. Where human will comes into the picture is with the decision to open one's soul to God, or to close it against Him. To do the latter is to distort one's own human nature.
I'm sure I'm not expressing this very well. Movements of the soul are difficult to express in language....
Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ, for your most illuminating essay/post!
Excellent post, Sister. “So they have no excuse.”
Jesus even said that His miracles testify of Him, and He said that His Church will do even greater things.
As someone on this thread hinted, even logic has its limitations. I, for example, know that I would be demolished in a chess match by a master. And chess is a matter of logic and awareness.
When are we honest enough to admit that our logical ability to see ahead has reached it’s limit: one move, two, three...eleven...twenty...a hundred?
It’s the same with singing, but we are willing to admit our range: one octave, two, three...and most of us will be stuck somewhere in there. And we admit it.
The Logos has no limit.
AMEN!
Salvation is all by, for and through the free, unmerited grace of Jesus Christ. Mercy and not debt.
And because God is gracious and holy, no man who comes to Him will be turned away.
Why? Because His sheep know His voice and they follow Him. He loved them before they loved Him.
"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:9-13"I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." -- Romans 10:20
As Alamo-girl noted, the light of the truth of Jesus Christ is so strong and self-evident that no man is without excuse. And yet some do not believe. And that is because they have been left on their own which is exactly where they want to be.
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." -- Ephesians 3:14-21"For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
It really means something to say "all glory to God alone." Salvation is all God's doing, from start to finish. That is what makes it such a wondrous, unearned, free gift. When I truly understood that, Christ became more real to me than anything in this world. I once was blind, but now I see...
While the pursuit of religious supremacy or orthodoxy has produced horrible results at times so has the pursuit of almost every human endeavor.
“He may have an excuse for not knowing Who God IS.”....
But man has no excuse for ignoring the need for knowing anymore than ignoring the need to eat simply the best diet is difficult to find.
Indeed the pursuit of God has been one of greatest of human endeavors throughout man's history.
Adam had no problem, neither did Noah, Abraham, and so on. When did God exactly become transcendental? How do you know that he is transcendental? How do you know what he is like if not by an a priori acceptance of a book (a physical evidence), written by human beings, and even there he is not always transcendental.
If something is not detectable then it is presumed. What difference is there if we call it God, pink unicorns on Jupiter, Snow White, or Santa; it's still a presumption.
The physical world, even your strawberry test, is our only litmus meter because we are physical beings (the spiritual is presumed). So, even our subjective is verified by the physical because, on a chemical level, ultimately even the taste is physical, just as heat or pain is.
How do you apply your strawberry test to God? You are absolutely right that what I call green may not appear as the same color to you, but we all call it green. I don't know and can't know what it looks like to you, just as I can't tell you what strawberry tastes like. But we can say it "tastes good." or that it "tastes bad" or that it "has no taste".
Just because the two of us agree that it "tastes good," does it have to "taste good" to everyone else? This subjective "truth" is not only subjective but also very relative. Unfortunately, people don't treat subjective as relative.
Some think strawberries "taste bad." Are they "heretics?" Are they "blind and deaf" or totally "depraved" because they don't agree that strawberries "taste good?"
And what proof other than our subjective impression do we have that it "tastes good?" And on what grounds do we justly the idea that all those who don't think strawberries "taste good" are "wrong?"
And is it a crime, morally wrong, what have you, to change your mind about taste? I used to hate spinach when I was a kid. Now I love it. Was I "wrong" then or am I "wrong" now? Was I "depraved" then and "enlightened" now?
Taking this one step further, should we burn the pesky strawberry "tastes good" deniers at stake for blasphemy against the "truth" that strawberries taste good, as "revealed" to you and me?
Sounds ridiculous but that's precisely how the world of religion acts out with people who don't "taste" their proverbial strawberry in the sky the "right" way. Millions have died over this.
God is an idea, an abstraction, a hypothesis. No one even knows how to define the divine. How can one recognize the form if one doesn't know the essence? Yet so many treat it as a matter of fact.
The burden of proof is on the assumption, not on the doubt. It is on me to prove that pink unicorns exist on Jupiter, not on anyone who doubts that. And until I prove they exist I can't place them on the par with the real world and talk about them as if it were a fact. But believers do. And they know exactly which strawberry is right and how it must taste to everyone or else you are on the "dark side" and doomed.
Unlike God, a strawberry is real, and our difference is based on subjective taste alone. In the case of God, we can't even show that he is real, let alone what he "tastes" like.
So, we are arguing over the 'taste' of 'food' that doesn't even physically exist or at least is not physically discernible, logically definable, mentally conceivable, etc. but supposedly clearly "experienced" with great certainty and detail even thou it transcends our senses, time, space and logic! 'If that's not insane I don't know what is.
You write If the transcendent exists, it impossible to see with the tools you require - tools that by design cannot see it. Therefore, you claim it does not exist. That's a error in reason called a category error.
How do you know it exists if we don't have the "tools"? You can't prove that something exists just because you can imagine it. And a subjective experience is, shall we say, as much relative as it is unreliable.
What good is that when they tell me that he transcends human reason and logic...
Then you write to justify your rebellion against God your Father, and are evidently trying to recruit others to join you in apostasy.
Can you substantiate this? I never called anyone to join me in anything. This is not just reading my mind but imputing my motives, an accusation. Why? Because I don't think like you?
I respond to what people tell me about their God. I call on them to prove their presumptions. That's not recruiting them to join my "apostasy."
I have disagreements with what people make God out to be. You will never see me ridicule God per se. I don't hate God. I don't deny that God could exist like so many atheists do. I simply don't know.
Where is my "sin?"
The Jewish mystics say that choosing is the meaning of the word ruach speaking of a man's soul; ruach is the pivot unique to man which chooses to be Godly minded or earthly minded.
And they point to nephesh (Genesis 1) as the earthly soul common to all living things, tugging him to be carnally or earthly minded.
And they point to the neshama (Genesis 2, breath of God whereby Adam became a living soul) as the spirit unique to man, tugging him to be heavenly minded.
So man is always being conflicted and choosing.
We see a similar description in Romans 8. But here the Christian man is not alone in his choosing because he has ruach Elohim (Genesis 1) - the Spirit of God in him:
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:1-9
You are describing man before the Fall.
After the fall of our first father, Adam, human beings default to their sin nature.
That's why the only thing that saves us is not found within us naturally, but given to us supernaturally by God who gifts us with eyes to see and ears to hear and a new heart to believe and a renewed mind to understand the price Christ paid for us on the cross.
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
This flies in the face of the notion that God transcends logic and reason.
He may have an excuse for not knowing Who God IS
Sorry, if you can't detect something, you can't acknowledge its existence. Assuming that God gave "detection tools" only to some, only they would "detect God" and acknowledge that he is. It's like that dog whistle only dogs can hear but we can't.
In order to know who he is one would have to know what he is first, what is divinity. And since that is outside of our realm (by definition) and not subject to our sense or reason, we cannot know what divinity is and therefore never know who he is as he is or even if he is. We can, and did, however, make one up in our minds, usually in heavily anthropomorphic terms.
The only way to know God is personally and that is all God's doing
Nice hypothesis. Too bad you can't prove it. Just because you like chocolate doesn't mean the whole world has to.
To God be the glory, not man, never man.
Indeed the pursuit of God has been one of greatest of human endeavors throughout man's history.
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
Your scriptures say that one must have the (spiritual) eyes and ears, betty boop, that is spiritual "senses" God gives only to some, or else you can't understand or comprehend the gospel and acknowledge him.
But you agree that it's all God's doing. How can it be what we want?!? You can't have it both ways. Either God is in charge ro we are. Either it's according to God's paln or our plan. LOL.
In other words, driven by insecurity (fear) and ignorance.
I would challenge anyone to discover a society anywhere that has no religious practices at all, no reference to moral and spiritual direction to something outside of themselves
That's because ignorance and fear is universal.
While the pursuit of religious supremacy or orthodoxy has produced horrible results at times so has the pursuit of almost every human endeavor
I am glad you acknowledge it is a human endeavor. Some still insist it is all God's doing, part of his "Plan".
It seems to me that if the door of our soul is open, God gives the requisite gifts. If the door is barred against Him, then He doesn't. Whether the door is open or closed is a matter of human will.
Or so it seems to me, FWIW.
Ah, so he was trying to provide physical proof that we little humans can relate to! Funny how in those days spiritual just wasn't good enough...but today we must take everything on faith alone and never demand physical proof.
Faith healing is no proof. In fact it has been exposed as a scam more than once. Turning water into wine would be a joke even for David Copperfield and he is no Jesus. In other words, if Jesus tried to prove his divinity today with faith-healing or by water-wine trick no one would ever believe him!
Now if he moved Mt. Sinai to California, that might work...he said it would be easy even with as little faith as a mustard seed! (cf Mat 17:20) In fact he says nothing will be be impossible for you with that much (or little) faith.
So, why not do the ultimate convincing proof, like restore someone's lost limb through prayer, or cure cancer reliably and consistently by prayer. or resurrect an aborted infant? After all, he said nothing will be impossible "if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed."
The only thing to conclude is that no one on earth has even that much faith, or else what Matthew wrote is not true.
God knocks and it's up to you to open and let him in. That is certainly the way the Catholic/Orthodox Church sees it, but the Reformed don't. They believe in irresistible grace. Mark likes to call it being hijacked by the Holy Spirit.
The Reformed will quote biblical verses that show it is God's choice, that our relationship with God is not one of cooperation by predestination—something that was decided before we even existed and that what we want is ultimately God's choice and God's plan, that God's will cannot be resisted, and that God is in charge at all times (God's absolute sovereignty is the pillar of their Christianity).
You will have to hash this out with your Reformed brothers and sisters. But there is no doubt that your scripture states that no all have the eyes and ears necessary to acknowledge God and that ti is not their choice or doing. If you are born deaf and blind it is not your fault that you can' see and hear.
To say that God is susceptible to "proof" is to commit apostasy in the first place. He is not subject to human judgment in any way, shape, or form.
Which is the entire point of the observation, "Man is not the measure of God."
Plus God is not "my" (or "their") God. He is One God expressing as three Persons eternally, universally. And the Father calls His sons and daughters into communion with Himself, in and for love. He sacrificed His only-begotten Son to make this relationship possible, post-Fall. And His Holy Spirit He freely provides to effectuate that relationship — to those who will open their souls to Him.
At least, this is my understanding.
can’ = can’t
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