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Ananias and Sapphira, Original Sin in the Church:-TITHING
Houston Catholic Worker, ^ | Vol. XXII, No. 7, December 2002. | by Jorge Domínguez Rojo

Posted on 06/26/2010 10:13:41 AM PDT by restornu

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To: reaganaut
And NO GOOD UPSTANDING CHRISTIAN PASTOR would ‘check’ their members giving with a ‘tithing settlement’.

Needs to be repeated often.

As a matter of fact, Christian pastors are "checked" by their congregations and held to account for every dime they may have access to. Unlike the Corporation of the Church of Just Contribute of the Latter Day Spendthrifts.

501 posted on 07/01/2010 10:45:21 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (If voters follow the democrat method of 2004 Obama will be named the worst president in history.)
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To: svcw; Godzilla

The LDS get it right from the beginning. Their understanding of the creation, from a confused chaos, is perfect Hebrew. Later rabbis were concerned that God creating from extant matter would make God seem less godly, so it was interpreted differently. Read it again and check the Hebrew.


502 posted on 07/03/2010 5:36:15 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: aruanan; fish hawk

Excellent post and spot on. We must do something. The entire Bible from end to end discusses God’s expectations, which include faith and works.


503 posted on 07/03/2010 5:38:51 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Elsie

Elsie, your posters point was that you need to put the Bible into context. You parse it to your convenience, not to the reality of what the Bible says. If that’s so then epistles to one town don’t apply to another...unless...unless you have a church structure with a priesthood.

That’s how it works and the only way it can apply to the whole church. Without a formal structure or a priesthood with a formal leadership you have chaos.

There must be a hierarchy or it is just opinion/philosophy/interpretation. There must be succession, formality, credentials or it’s a mishmash of differing scholars and agendas.


504 posted on 07/03/2010 5:43:37 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Elsie

I thought you’d catch that. ;-]


505 posted on 07/03/2010 5:44:19 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Elsie

You’re parsing Elsie. What’s the entire message of the Gospel? To believe alone or to be/to act?


506 posted on 07/03/2010 5:45:44 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: caww; reaganaut
1010RD: The reality is you're my Sister if I say you are. You can reject it, but I won't stop believing it. You sound like a wonderful person. The very kind I'd like for a Sister.

caww: This is presumptuous manipulation...evidencing a lack of understanding of the intent of the poster and inabilitiy to respond accordingly. Thus appealing to the "feeling" side (maniputlation) rather than a thought out logical response.

This is not presumptuous or manipulative, but simple reality. Is faith logical?

I have faith in the Bible. Relying on that alone we have the following from God himself:

Genesis 1:26 English Standard Version (©2001)

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

The Hebrew is patently clear. You, I and all mankind are made in the image and likeness of God.

What are the two great commandments?

New International Version (©1984) Matt 22:37-39

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.

NB: Jesus himself is the speaker and he continues: A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Therefore as a Bible-believer, a believer in the words and promise of Jesus Christ I must conclude that you are my sister. What limit did our Savior place on that love? None. If I love my God, and I do, I will love his creation. In what form should that love take? To love you as I would love and care about myself.

If I were to love you as a spouse or parent, that would be inappropriate. Which love am I left with? Which loving relationship is most appropriate, normal, ideal and respecting of your individual sovereignty?

Brother/Sisterhood. Every person is my brother/sister and all deserve that appellation and respect. It is not limited by religious professions of faith, but a fact of humanity and our Creator.

Look to the word of God and all will be made plain.

507 posted on 07/03/2010 6:07:33 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: T Minus Four; reaganaut
You can wish something to be so but that doesn’t make it so. And I am not your sister either but I am Reaganaut’s.

Excellent, Sister, excellent. Now we can make real progress. Will you be teachable?

I am not wishing anything. I am simply relying on my sovereign Lord's word. You are my sister and always will be, despite time, space or belief.

Please see my post this thread #507, O daughter of Eve, for I am a true son of Adam.

508 posted on 07/03/2010 6:11:13 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: svcw
As an lds you must know that lds can not get into heaven without the approval of Joseph Smith.

So I pursue Biblical truth, unfettered by the opinions of men, and you call me an LDS. You do see the irony of that, no? LOL.

Christ can speak for Himself and He has, unfortunately lds see what Jesus has said through the fog of JS and BY and by that have made Jesus weak and impotent.

You are an ex-Mormon, no? How do they make Jesus weak and impotent? Be specific, please. I'd like to learn what you know firsthand.

When you (lds) add after all we can do to Salvation it demonstrates they have zero to little understanding of Grace.

Why does the LDS recognizing that God has expectations for action - "work" - undermine Grace? The two are separate, though they act in concert.

509 posted on 07/03/2010 6:17:47 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Godzilla; restornu; narses
Gojira,

Please take a look at the English language. A "certain part" is a synonym for a "portion". A certain part is not the whole thing.

The verse doesn't read as you've stated it. Take a look at Young's Literal Translation here: http://yltbible.com/acts/5.htm

I really like Biblos, although I used to use Biblegateway.

You'll see that the story reads just like the article implies. It is quite possibly a tithing and as Restornu is implying could be a tithing settlement. Peter would be the head of the Church as it was at this time.

Were this to have been a 'tithe' the greek word apodekatoō would have been used.

No, it simply could have been used. What is the point of the passage? Who is the audience?

The point of the passage is not to lie to your Priesthood leadership and said lie, in proper context of speaking to someone authorized by God, is a violation of the Holy Spirit which guides them, the leadership.

The reason some Christians misinterpret this passage is that it reinforces the view that you need an organized Church with a priesthood. This supports the Catholic and LDS positions and is against the Reform/Protestant position. Hence it is ignored/misinterpreted by them.

Restornu, I ping you as the resident LDS expert. Am I right as regards the LDS teaching?

Narses, I think you have the Catholic ping list. Is that interpretation true of Catholics, regarding the organized Church, Peter as its head, and a priesthood to carry out the Lord's wishes?

510 posted on 07/03/2010 6:32:48 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD; Irisshlass; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
Narses, I think you have the Catholic ping list. Is that interpretation true of Catholics, regarding the organized Church, Peter as its head, and a priesthood to carry out the Lord's wishes?

511 posted on 07/03/2010 6:59:24 AM PDT by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: 1010RD; svcw
The LDS get it right from the beginning.

Well, apparently you are having to scrap the bottom of the barrel in this aspect 10. Matter is not eternal 10, nor is the rest of their contorted understandings. those later rabbis were falling to hellenistic, platonic, thought. The Umwelt of OT Judaism (and, by implication, that of early Christianity) furnished an appropriate context for belief in creation out of nothing. The book of 2 Maccabees states clearly the traditional doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. Within the DSS collection 1QS 3:15 clearly speaks of creatio ex nihilo. Gamaliel also clearly expressed the same. So these later rabbis were then referring back to the foundational teachings - which are supported in the Hebrew.

512 posted on 07/03/2010 7:09:19 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: 1010RD
....... "Every person is my brother/sister and all deserve that appellation and respect. It is not limited by religious professions of faith, but a fact of humanity and our Creator."......

Where one finds counterfeit Christianity one will also find counterfeit 'attributes' masquerading as "Angels of light" from those who follow it's teachings. "Wolves in sheep's clothing" use the language of Christianity as well as the scriptures just as satan did in the desert. We are not ignorant of his devices.

Many politicians are also full of this 'love and respect' you speak of one for the other. It is phony and generally visible to those who are informed. So likewise it travels thru religious circles and even among pagan cults who are quick to call one another brothers/sisters.

One can believe, and some do, if they hug a tree they're obtaining life force from that tree....but the reality is they are not. Another can believe baptizing the dead by surrogates will make a difference to the dead person but the reality is the surrogate's is simply getting wet.

Believe what you will but that has nothing to do with the reality that those who follow and practice a counterfeit Christianity, an occult, cults or any such as these are not at all my brother nor my sister....even should they say so. "Universalism" and those who adhere to this belief that we are all God's children is a lie....we are His only by adoption... just as Christ said.

513 posted on 07/03/2010 7:11:40 AM PDT by caww
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To: 1010RD

“O daughter of Eve, for I am a true son of Adam.”

We are now entered thru the wardrobe into another land.


514 posted on 07/03/2010 7:19:32 AM PDT by caww
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To: 1010RD; Colofornian; reaganaut; ejonesie22; greyfoxx39
Please take a look at the English language. A "certain part" is a synonym for a "portion". A certain part is not the whole thing.

Excuse me 10 - YOU made the claim that the Greek was specifically PORTION. Further, in no instance does the term equate to 'tithe', either by synonym or concept.

The verse doesn't read as you've stated it. Take a look at Young's Literal Translation here: http://yltbible.com/acts/5.htm

Didn't your mama teach you that when you find yourself in a hole to stop digging.

Act 5:2 KJV - And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet.

Act 5:2 YLT and did keep back of the price -- his wife also knowing -- and having brought a certain part, at the feet of the apostles he laid [it].

Young's fails to support your argument even more. Try greek

Act 5:2 TR καὶ ἐνοσφίσατο ἀπὸ τῆς τιμῆς συνειδυίας καὶ τῆς γυναικός αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐνέγκας μέρος τι παρὰ τοὺς πόδας τῶν ἀποστόλων ἔθηκεν

Incase you haven't figured it out yet 10, the passage is originally in greek - not english - therefor the true understanding is greek, not english translations.

It is quite possibly a tithing and as Restornu is implying could be a tithing settlement.

Oh, my making leaps of illogic that Evil Knevil would avoid LOL. There is nothing inferred or specifically stated in the passage that these offerings were nothing more than free will gifts.

ZX - Were this to have been a 'tithe' the greek word apodekatoō would have been used.
10 - No, it simply could have been used. What is the point of the passage? Who is the audience?

Since you are trying to make the argument that this represents a tithe, the proper used of the word for it - apodekatoō - SHOULD have been used. Since it was NOT, then the meaning and purpose of the act is for something OTHER than tithing.

The point of the passage is not to lie to your Priesthood leadership and said lie, in proper context of speaking to someone authorized by God, is a violation of the Holy Spirit which guides them, the leadership.

Let me ask you - do you really READ the bible, or simply regurgitate what morg apologists toss out? The passage is very specific as to why they were punished -

3* But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4* Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Ananias and his wife represented the offering as the full amount received from the sale. Verse 4 makes it clear that this was in no manner a coerced (tithing settlement) offering - but a free will.

The reason some Christians misinterpret this passage is that it reinforces the view that you need an organized Church with a priesthood.

Not in the slightest - but the reverse is true for lsd - they are looking for SOMETHING that they can claim for their 'priesthood'.

515 posted on 07/03/2010 7:32:36 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: 1010RD
I am responding only to let you know that I have read your replies. I do not want you to think I have ignored you. I want you to know it.
516 posted on 07/03/2010 7:36:05 AM PDT by svcw (Habakkuk 2:3)
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To: 1010RD
True but only the “faith” part leads to salvation. The works part means nothing until the faith through grace is accomplished. (otherwise it is as filthy rags) No one can “works” their way into heaven. Good works gets jewels in the crown only.
517 posted on 07/03/2010 9:22:22 AM PDT by fish hawk (Hussein Obama: Golf/Gulf, not very good at either.)
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To: 1010RD
“we must do something”. True, you MUST believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died for your sins. Other than that you “must” do nothing. You can and will do something but you “MUST” do nothing for salvation.
518 posted on 07/03/2010 9:25:47 AM PDT by fish hawk (Hussein Obama: Golf/Gulf, not very good at either.)
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To: Godzilla; Colofornian; reaganaut; ejonesie22; greyfoxx39
Alright, let's begin again. It's not περισσεῦον, υπόλοιπο, χονδρούς, ισοζύγιο. So using logic it isn't the entire remaining amount, but some portion or share as the Greek which Young's shows as "certain part".

Biblegateway supports this as well see: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4%3A37%2CActs+5%3A2&version=NASB

Do you see it translated as portion? (not by me, but by Biblegateway)

If it doesn't say remainder than it isn't the whole thing, but some portion of it. Furthermore, it makes no statement as to free will gifts.

e.g. I sell and gain $100, withholding $20 secretly for myself and report the total of $80 as my net gain. Now that $80 represents 100% of my reported gain on which I give some portion/share/certain part.

Here you could be right. It isn't an offering of $8 or 10%, a tithe, but $40, $25, $52. We don't know and the story doesn't say.

Restornu's and the Catholic author's contention that it is a tithe is also supported by a plain reading of the text in either English or the Greek. What cannot be said is that it is not a tithe or 10%. Let's not dissemble in our pursuit of the truth. All three- Protestant/Reform, LDS, and Catholic positions are supported by a fair, honest and objective reading of the passage.

519 posted on 07/03/2010 9:44:08 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: Godzilla; Colofornian; reaganaut; ejonesie22; greyfoxx39; narses; restornu

Even more interesting - why did they bring their “offering” to Peter?


520 posted on 07/03/2010 9:45:11 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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