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To: kosta50
I thank you as well, for your detailed and informative answers, which I enjoy.

Although at the Last Supper, Jesus simply said "do this in memory of me," there's all that John 6 section where Jesus commands repeatedly, almost, as it seems, obstinately "Eat and drink my body and blood! I mean it!" (Very Jewish-motherish. "Ess, Ess Mayn Kind!")

And when people respond with, more or less, "Ack! I'm outta here!" he doesn't chase along after them saying, "Wait, I didn't mean it, it's just a metaphor, strictly a memorial thing." Not at all. He turns to the Apostles and says, "You want to leave, too?"

You say If the "breaking of the bread" is a memorial act, then it is not a sacrifice. As far as I can see, that's an "if...then" that doesn't automatically work. I would argue it is a memorial act and a sacrifice. But perhaps you have a definition of sacrifice which is different from what I've understood.

I see a kind of back-and-forth giving and re-giving, each one exceeding the last. God gives us the wheat and grapes, we take it and make it bread and wine and give it back to Him. He makes it into the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus, he gives it back to us. We receive Him and are joined together by the Holy Spirit into one body, one spirit in Christ, and we're given back to Him. It's rather a cascade of mutual gifting, I think.

I'll read Aquilina when I get a chance. I appreciate the recommendation.

2,432 posted on 07/07/2010 2:03:39 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (In theory. there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is. -Yogi Berra)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
there's all that John 6 section where Jesus commands repeatedly, almost, as it seems, obstinately "Eat and drink my body and blood! I mean it!"

Yes, of course, but contextually John (just as Paul) represents a historically and theologically an evolutionary development — Hellenization of Jesus. To most believers, his is just another Gospel. But it's not. John's Gospel cannot be interpreted out of context of the times and where Christianity was any more than one can understand American politics of the Nixon era without taking into account the effect of the Vietnam war on the American psyche.

And when people respond with, more or less, "Ack! I'm outta here!" he doesn't chase along after them saying, "Wait, I didn't mean it, it's just a metaphor, strictly a memorial thing." Not at all. He turns to the Apostles and says, "You want to leave, too?"

John's Gospel compares his flesh to manna. That is hardly a literal flesh, but symbolic. But even if taken literally, that wuld not have caused the Jews to say "Ack" because instances of cannibalism are a plenty in the Old Testament.

However, his suggestion that they should drink his blood is a different story. Judaism explicitly prohibits drinking or eating of blood of any mamal or bird (Gen 9:4)

So while shocking accounts of cannibalism are evident in the Old Testament (2 Kings 6:26-29, Jeremiah 19:9, Ezekiel 5:10, Lamentations 4:10), while called for in the New Testament (John 6:53-56). The only deviation from Judaism was Jesus' call for drinking of his blood, which ism as mentined above, prohibited by Law (Leviticus 17:10-14).

Clearly, John was busy creating something entirely new that was no longer Judaism.

I would argue it is a memorial act and a sacrifice. But perhaps you have a definition of sacrifice which is different from what I've understood

Where is the sacrifice in the Last Supper? In Judaism, sacrifice was offered asa propitiation or the atonement of guilt. Nothing in the Last Supper indicates atonement of guilt, but only remembrance.

I see a kind of back-and-forth giving and re-giving, each one exceeding the last

God doesn't need anything. Everything God gives to man is an undeserved gift. One does not return gifts because nothing we can give God would satisfy the One who needs nothing.

Sacrifice is not returning a favor. It is giving up something permanently, something prized, even essential. The idea of a sacrificial killing simply means that the one who is guilty dies, and the sins he carries die with him. It is not a "gift" returned to God.

In Judaism, the soul that sins shall die (Eze 18:4). Nor should anyone suffer for the iniquities of the other. Rather "the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." [Eze 18:20]

In other words: no man can atone for the iniquities of another man. That's one of the myriad reasons why Judaism rejected Christ. It's a Christian innovation.

2,435 posted on 07/07/2010 6:20:17 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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